Why is my partner so weird? Wait, why am I so weird?

~ 27 minute read ~

How do you experience your differences with your partner? Do you feel discomfort, or conflict, or isolated? Do you work to mask those differences by trying to meld together, or by acting like someone you're not? Let's talk about how our experience of those differences can help us grow in ourselves and in our relationships.

The following transcript was generated by AI, so enjoy the AI-flavored word choices and unconventional spellings of names.

Joli Hamilton
Hey, hey. So here we are. And we're ready to talk about something that could feel pretty separating.

Ken Hamilton
I think it could, and I think it's really interesting.

Joli Hamilton
It doesn't have to feel okay, what are we going to talk about? You picked the topic, I might have written it down, but you picked it out. Reconciling differences is the first half of the title. Okay? Because I can tell you the differences is something people come to me a lot for. That's, that's an important thing to figure out, where, where do we overlap? How do we overlap better or whatever. But then there's also reconciling to be different. What about if we don't overlap? Is that okay? What happens then? So I like this title. I like this topic, because I care a lot about differentiation about being able to be being not just able to be but being encouraged to be different from you. But also,

I also like the notion that I can actively seek to reconcile my differences by by engaging, like actually engaging in how you're different from me like I can, I can know myself better by engaging in that discussion about how we're different. Yes, sure. But in my household growing up, that turned into a whole lot of debate, an argument debate quickly escalated into argument, and escalated into pretty much just like verbal violence, and sometimes a little bit more than verbal violence was

Ken Hamilton
the debate about anything. Oh, any debate would turn into argument which would turn to Yeah, so I see. So anger was opposing your differences would would open you up to the possibility of

Joli Hamilton
Yes, yeah. So it was, it was strange, because there was this tension, where difference was encouraged because, well, my father liked to debate he liked to discuss, right, so he would create an environment where it was natural to discuss things this way. However, it almost always escalated. So in other words, any difference could easily and almost always did, literally every night of my childhood ended in escalation into difference becoming, so separating, so dissension argument hurt feelings,

Ken Hamilton
that's a persistent message that different is trouble. Right? Okay.

Joli Hamilton
So when you brought up this topic, I was thinking, cool, you know, differentiation, that's, you know, that's about getting to know yourself, and making sure that there's space for you to be yourself and your partnership and great. But right away, a pop this other voice that was like, careful,

Ken Hamilton
it's dangerous. That's what I hear is that what it feels like?

Joli Hamilton
It does, it feels a little dangerous, because my job in that family system was to be too active, actively engage with my father and argue, like that, that was my job. My job was to get in there and argue, and I took that job on, in part to protect my mother and brother. From his very quick witted, fast moving, argument tactics. And my, my brother and my mother, were a little bit less sharp about how they were verbally engaging with people, which is actually really nice and made them pleasant people to be around. My father and I were not known for being nice. And so we engaged in this really hostile way. And it took so much effort it has taken and continues to take so much effort to not see difference as an invitation into argument. Okay, I see, which is kind of hard, because you and I are really

Ken Hamilton
different. We are. So you've had quite a bit of experience now. Managing that situation. And I, I'm struck right now by the microcosm that I am hearing you describe of, of public discourse.

I mean, I go out on the internet and say something and watch what the people who disagree with you say. Some of them will just be like, Oh, I think something else and there'll be a conversation, but so much of it does bring up the the anger and the hostility. Yeah, yeah. So

Joli Hamilton
when, when you were talking about difference, you know, reconciling differences. I was initially thinking that we would talk about right off the bat I was thinking we would talk about, like wanting to spend our time doing different things, or wanting to um wanting our marriage to be different like and trying to negotiate, okay, you want one set of things, and I want another

Ken Hamilton
one out of life and our relationship and but it's bizarre. But now you're

Joli Hamilton
right away, it turned into something even bigger than that which is every single place where we are different is an opportunity, at least from my perspective to practice tolerating, like opening the window of tolerance so that I can tolerate embrace, accept, enjoy the fact that you are different than me. And you want different things. And it's definitely not simple for me. For you.

Ken Hamilton
Well, for me, see, I was coming into this conversation thinking, Oh, maybe we'll talk about in measurement and no codependence and the ways in which were different and how to, specifically for me how to how to extract me from the places that I put me out in the world trying to be like everybody else. What if I'm just miss. So that was all like, that's where I was coming from. But what you're talking about, I heard you talking about you, I don't remember the exact progression, but tolerate, accept, enjoy, you know, moving from withstanding our differences to celebrating them. And I think we've done we've come a long way from the beginning of our relationship. And it's amazing, the difference in how life feels.

Joli Hamilton
Yeah, but it's also an area that I think both of us are working on all the time all the time. Absolutely. Because now I'm feeling this tension of of different ways that I move in the world different ways. I watched clients move in the world. You know, I think we have this tendency to classify ourselves as like, Oh, I'm codependent or I'm an avoider or I'm avoidant, and I'm anxious and I'm like, we tend to put ourselves in a box. But I, you and I are maybe a really great example of this. You have taken plenty of attachment style quizzes, and you always come up pretty much the same way you have secure attachment but, but your tendency is toward avoidance minus toward anxious, I have earned secure attachment with you, but definitely anxious. And yet, I also identify as someone who was raised in codependence was raised to believe that codependence was like a go to style of relating and I then aspired to it in my first marriage and I practiced it so now I'm here I am this anxious person anxiously attached person who also actively has spent the last 13 years really practicing not being codependent to a degree that like I feel the tension of myself like

Ken Hamilton
I'm I'm like it's in opposition to who

Joli Hamilton
I am. Oh, so like my, my adult self and my child's self are in this dialogue reminded me of transactional analysis and how like my adult self and child self are in this dialogue. And I kind of I lose I lose a little self coherence. I feel feel a little confused about yet like if you're the avoidant one, how come you're the one that's codependent apparently it's not simple there. Right that so because we didn't the label isn't enough.

Ken Hamilton
We didn't say that. I'm avoidant doesn't explain everything about

Joli Hamilton
me. Right. And we weren't looking for this early in our relationship. I think we had put ourselves into these boxes. So I labeled myself as codependent and knew that I had a strong history in that knew I had to work against it, which we weren't looking for it in your history. You didn't have a first marriage that looked particularly enmeshed. You didn't have a childhood that looked particularly enmeshed. We didn't go looking for it. But we see it all the time come up in our relationship now.

Ken Hamilton
Yep. So it turns out if, if it wasn't in my previous history, then apparently it's possible to just decide to do it anyway. Well, I don't have to have history.

Joli Hamilton
Well, but maybe this is one of the more important points we haven't talked about this very much. I'm I was trained in psychodynamic theory, which means I think a lot about how we formed who we are in very early stages of development, right? Like before, you're seven years old, a lot of it even before you were two or three years old, right? But we're still growing and changing all the time. We're still alive, we're having a life. And there are ways in which I my development is now cycling through new ways of being Less functionally relational. Yep, I have not yet exhausted all the ways I can do relationships poorly. Damn.

Ken Hamilton
Yeah, I definitely haven't I still got more in the tank.

Joli Hamilton
I mean, good news, bad news, I guess. Okay, so I want to go I want to circle back to this and sum it up because it feels helpful. In the early stages of our relationship we had you pegged as the avoidant one to me as the anxious one. And we had me pegged as the codependent one that was coherent with that line of thought, like, Oh, she's anxious, and she's codependent. She's needy, she, she's, she's had some trouble with struggling with like, voicing her needs. But other than that, it's just a lot of like, I'm gonna want a lot of attention. Yeah, that's it, I'm gonna want a lot of attention, I'm going to be scrambling, I'm going to be pulling out you. But we labeled you as being avoidant, and we labeled you as being overly isolationist, and disconnected and not a good relator. And those are like, those are like, mantle's that we put on in early stages of our relationship. And it's

Ken Hamilton
a fully fully defined package to like, Oh, this is all all. This is what you get with avoidant attachment.

Joli Hamilton
Yes, the danger of taking one of one of the many personality quizzes or psychometric quizzes of any kind, right? Or, and then extrapolating then, and then forgetting that, it's only defining, like one little facet of of a dynamic and brilliant individual. Because fast forward a few years into our relationship, and tell me about the first time you you realized that it was you who was clinging, and all up in my business, because I don't think you realize that yourself. I think somebody told you,

Ken Hamilton
oh, boy, okay. The first time,

Joli Hamilton
the first time somebody told you that, maybe you should just let me you know, do my work. Somebody you really respect told you this?

Ken Hamilton
You don't necessarily mean you do? I mean? No. I was very helpful to me in in seeing past what, what I brought, like the pictures I painted of myself. And he would look at what I what I painted and the total stories I would tell about what I did, and, and yeah, I'm like, okay, so great. That's her work. What are you doing? Yeah, you know, why? What are you doing while she's doing that work? And can you just let her do it for a while, see what happens so

Joli Hamilton
fair, who served as a father figure to you, at a time when you were doing some big emotional and psychological growth? So he was your analyst? And, and he was, but more importantly, than being an analyst, it seemed like he really did step into into your psyche as a father figure. Oh, yeah. And I remember the day that he told you that you were the one who was in meshing, you were the one who was like, you had infiltrated every facet of my life. And we were losing. We were losing individuality, we weren't going to be on our individuation journeys. Because we were you, you had an in this case, and I want to take full responsibility for being my own person who was allowing this to happen. But he noticed that you had stopped engaging with very many other people. And you were, you didn't have a ton of other friends. You didn't you just you were in. And then maybe more importantly, everything I was doing was what you had started to care about. Yep. So I had gone back to grad school and you you cared about that. And I was, you know, whatever book I was reading you were interested in whatever music I was listening to you were interested in? Yes. Yeah. We weren't looking for that pattern. So when he pointed it out? Yeah. And I was looking for it myself. So I was, I was paying attention. So I would catch myself slipping into it.

Ken Hamilton
You had dabbled in that a little bit early on. But But then what I saw was that your own passions and interests were very strong. And so you you pursued them. And then you know and it is I watched you pursuing or at least investigating my interests early on, and I was learning how to do relationships different I was like, Okay, let me see what you're doing. Because I don't want to do what I have done. I want to do something new. So oh, that's the thing you did well, I'm going to do that too. And then I did in fact enjoy it. I really interested in the things that you have been investigating. So it was authentic. But what it didn't have anything else other than what you were what you brought me. Yeah, just by Being you next to me because you weren't bringing it to me you were bringing it to you. And I was going to you and saying, hey, well, what's what's that? Like the little brother that I am?

Joli Hamilton
Right? So here's another place where another psychological theory can help us understand the many layers of dynamics that were going on. Because you are a youngest child. I am an eldest child. So if you want to take a nap, Larry and view like I am, I was born to lead. And I had no, no, I never think that I can't just go set off on the next adventure. Like, it's always in me to do that. And I always follow my passions. And it's a very prototypical move to make as an eldest child, especially one who was identified. And you were youngest child, and you were not. You don't appear to have been babied too much.

Ken Hamilton
No, but I do. Everything you just described made me want to say, and so then I, as the youngest child from my experiences, and waiting for somebody else to tell me it's okay to do a thing. So there's my older siblings, there's, there's my, my older siblings and their friends all older than me, all doing things and, and me with a couple people around in the neighborhood and, and being I mean, if we can go back to the avoidant thing, so I didn't reach out a lot as a kid. But there were all these people. So when you see what I can do

Joli Hamilton
was a strategy to keep you safe. It was, yeah.

Ken Hamilton
And but then I'd reach out, but I reached out to these people who were developmentally at a different stage, and they're like, they don't want me around necessarily, but I would try to get them to give me permission to go with them. So then you'd hint

Joli Hamilton
that she was like a very, like, I'll just, I'll just snuggle up next to you. And maybe if I

Ken Hamilton
ingratiate and maybe they'll invite me rather than saying kinda my own

Joli Hamilton
little brother was had a reputation for being the cute kid like he would have this like little round cherub face, and he would be like, Oh, he was he literally literally trying to ingratiate himself, literally, he would just like snuggle up. I can I can. I cannot. He was like,

Ken Hamilton
and it works. Not a bad strategy. I mean,

Joli Hamilton
right? It works. Yeah. And we see we see that play out in the older and younger kids in our family, too. So so some of this is just the habits that will occur in families. But what I think is interesting to me about couples, like we, we couple up, right, and so often, we we create, then a complementary system. Right? So I if I'm the anxious one, then you have to be the avoidant one. If I'm the codependent one, then you have to be the isolationist. Why

Ken Hamilton
is the green one? I'm the fuzzy one, right? The

Joli Hamilton
classic problem. Right? So polyamory messes with that,

Ken Hamilton
right? Because now you don't have this dyad there's multiple people and you got to figure out,

Joli Hamilton
right, so early in our relating, it was actually easier for me, because there were three of us. And so it the triangle created this Oh, okay, actually, I don't really know, we can't just divide things up. And a one for one race. Like, that's not how it goes, we don't just polarize everything into these as if, as if everything that was in existence has to be divided up as the ends of the polar extremes, right? Like, as if there's not just a world of spectrums to exist in.

Ken Hamilton
But as and then, so then later on, there was just the two of us. And we, I certainly put myself in a position with any other without any other people. And the kids don't count, because this is no they shouldn't be part of this. So yeah, and without adding more people in in other ways, that that binary system becomes more and more polarized or can and it did,

Joli Hamilton
right. So at different times in our relating, I have felt that polyamory or open relating has protected us from becoming overly enmeshed. But at other times, I feel like we've hidden behind it a little bit. And assumed that being open or having other people in our lives that were important to us, protected us from it, but but here we are, we still own a home together and raise children together and deal with school system together. And even though we homeschool most of them and there's still a lot of opportunity for melding

Ken Hamilton
for a lot of opportunity

Joli Hamilton
over.

Ken Hamilton
Yeah, particularly at the tail end of a Long pandemic, there were a lot of opportunities to just isolate, because we were trying to write,

Joli Hamilton
so we're isolating, and again practicing that habit, the habit of I'm this. So you're that. And so this feels to me like a less functional way of differentiating. So on the one hand, it was good because it helped us be different people, because when we first fell for each other, not when we first met each other, because we were just children. But when we first had romantic feelings for each other, it was so much it was just projection. There was so much projection, it was so much production that I remember us being like, oh my gosh, how did we not see how well like we are? We're so like, we're so like, it was ridiculous. And the fact that we both thought that told us that, yeah, you're both head over heels in love with, you know, a vision of yourself that you see in another person. It's actually about them right now. Luckily, I really did like you turns out the person who was behind the projection screen, yeah, I like you. But at the end those early days, you were a projection screen for me. I was projecting all my golden

Ken Hamilton
shadow on your me. Yep. Yeah. And that

Joli Hamilton
was very, very tempting to just subsume into. And yet, we had this complex relationship with another person involved and with me trying to be open and dating as well. And so then things got simpler for a while. Because after our triadic situation ended, there was a period of time where we were just busy running a business. And I was enrolling in grad school, and we were getting married. And so it became easy to fall into a different kind. So we had, we'd gotten through that projection, all that golden shadow projection in love stuff. We'd gotten through the hardest part of that and realize we aren't actually just like, Yep, we're actually very, very different. But then we were introduced to a new phase where now you could become all this and I could become all that.

Ken Hamilton
Right.

Joli Hamilton
And I don't, I don't know that I could have seen this as it was happening. But I was cutting off pieces of myself left and right. I can't I can't speak to what you were doing. But I know what I was doing. I was doing exactly what Robert Bly describes as as you know, just like in childhood, when you have pieces of yourself that don't fit. And you're asked to just like dissociate those disown those pieces, and you shove them in a long bag you drag behind you that shadow back. Right. I was doing it again.

Ken Hamilton
Yeah, because that resonates.

Joli Hamilton
It just made sense. I couldn't be, I couldn't be the sciency. One, that was your thing. And you couldn't be the creative one. That was my thing. And yeah, I could feel us doing it. But it was really hard. Really, really hard at the time to do anything else

Ken Hamilton
was. And I don't know about you. But one of the things that. And I don't it wasn't the first at all. But one of the things that helped me move past this. This this polarity that we're talking about, is you were the relational one. And I wasn't. But it became clear in retrospect, it's very clear. But there there was this very blurry understanding on my part that wait a minute, if I'm not relational, how am I going to be in a relationship? How can I actually be here with you, who I wanted, so very much to be with. And so I had to figure out how to how to fit. I had to re understand myself as someone who is relational, because that also resonated with a message from my whole life. So it didn't just start there. But it was an easy one to fall into. And then I realized this is never going to work. If I don't pick that up. I'm still trying to pick it up.

Joli Hamilton
I think you're doing a really good job of it. Thanks. One of the things that I noticed is very different now is when you go on dates, you asked me fewer questions you asked you, you asked me to be less of a mirror for you, like am I, you know, am I doing this right? And it's gotten better and better over the course of years,

Ken Hamilton
the last couple of dates and when I started dating, I felt like someone who had absolutely no clue what to do in that situation. And in the last couple of dates that I had, I've I felt confidence, a strong word, but maybe like, Okay, I know what I'm doing. I'm gonna go talk to a person I know I don't talk to a person I just go do that. That's exactly what I saw. Instead of twisting myself up in knots, saying that I'm not someone who knows how to talk to people.

Joli Hamilton
That's it because this wasn't actually I never felt you have fear that you like couldn't be liked. It was More like you were just stuck in this idea that you were like, not of the of the human realm, and you separated yourself out and and then would use me as your bridge. Yes. And my, my hard one but strong relationality you would use that. And now I feel you more and more, but really strongly in the last four or five years owning your own competence, I mean confidence, yes, and your competence at being a good relator. And that doesn't mean that you don't have habits that aren't ideal

Ken Hamilton
behaviors and whatnot. And but now I have other things too. I believe I have other things, too.

Joli Hamilton
So now I want to circle back to our opening ideas, because I'm thinking about how reconciling differences wasn't actually our problem. Through most of our relationship around parenting, there was plenty of stuff to do. But around our, our Couplehood, our romanticism, our sex, life, all of those things, we didn't have to reconcile a lot of differences. But we've done a ton of reconciling with being different. And letting that be not just okay, but a strength, yes, for our relationship. And I feel like that's something we come back to over and over again. And I watch clients come in, and when they are, when they're first entering my world, right, they often are. They're wobbling, there's something uncomfortable happening, because one of them, at least has decided that they really want something more in their life. And so there's, there's a wobble, there's a, oh, what are we going to do? We want something different like this, how will this rock the system, and deciding that it's okay, to spend time in, in the uncomfortable not knowing place of we are different. And we might have been practicing being the same for reasons that aren't really helpful, that won't actually facilitate our individual growth. Those are the moments where they get to decide to come into a process of learning to be different and differentiated from from each other. And even from their own interest. Psychic parts might dif different like really start to sort themselves out. In those early weeks of work, often there'll be these these wobbles, whereas there's a temptation back to we are identical, we are the same, we are one unit. And that temptation will I would say it doesn't ever told it's never totally disappeared for me. I have to remind myself to stay out of I do

Ken Hamilton
I? Because it's often

Joli Hamilton
it's a it's a it's a it's a an A waste, not an oasis, what's that a mirage? Oh, yeah, that that idea that if I'm the same as you, I'll be safe in this relationship is a mirage, it's not,

Ken Hamilton
it is a mirage. If if that were true, if you and I were the same in this relationship, we would have a whole host of problems, right? Different ones than we have right now. But they it would be really difficult to work with them. Since we both be having the same problems at the same time. Right now we have different problems at different times, and can support each other in ways I can support you. Because I'm not having the emotional response to a particular thing that's happening right now. So I can help you with yours. And you do the same thing with me all the time.

Joli Hamilton
Right? So one of the places that we learned, and we lean into as being a strength of ours, and I see this come up with couples all the time is one, our reactivities aren't going to be the same, like the places where we are most emotionally reactive, are often different. Cuz we grew up in different households, and we had different histories and we live different lives. Great. So if we can acknowledge that we have these strengths and weaknesses in our, in our ability to like self regulate, in our ability to be in relationship, in our ability to just manage life, then the process of becoming, you know, like, the process of learning how to do this relationship thing can rely on those strengths. Yeah, we can lean into them. So you can, for instance, support me when I am experiencing dissociation, because I still do I still experienced associative bouts, where because a whole bunch of stuff has happened in my life, I'll go through periods of time when that's a, that's a way that I react. And you don't have that same tendency. And so you're able to lean in there. There are other ways that we can access each other's strengths and weaknesses. But we also don't have to give up on the fact that just because I have a tendency to dissociate, some doesn't mean that I am now the dissociative one.

Ken Hamilton
Yes. Right. I mean, that's not

Joli Hamilton
that is in no way the sum total of me I'm struck by how the the strength of our process boils down to, once again, the lens of multiplicity, but turned on ourselves

Ken Hamilton
or turned on ourselves on on letting on our individual selves and of each other,

Joli Hamilton
right, letting you be more than one thing, I let myself be more than one thing, I let myself have more than one feeling, I pay attention to the fact that you can have more than one feeling. So you might be reactive, but also calm. At the same time, different parts of you might be feeling different ways. Or you might feel very differently in a very short span of time. These are, this has been an illuminating half hour for me, because sometimes I forget how far we've come. And how long the road there still is to live together. It's not, it's not a bad thing, it's a good thing, it actually makes me really hopeful that just because we actually have gotten to a place where I feel really safe in our relationship, doesn't mean we're gonna get stagnant. Right. And that's, that's a big win for me, because the little girl who was raised in chaos, still lives in here, thinking she needs to start more chaos, because the only time she's loved is when everything's falling apart. And if I can be patient, and still and just take in the fact that we are growing during these quiet, calm conversations that did not require chaos or breakdown. There's not going to be a lack of growth and love and attention. So thank you.

Ken Hamilton
And I know I, what an amazing spot to be in 10 years from now I wonder what it will look like to look back on this time.

Joli Hamilton
Okay, so I'm okay action step, then I'm going to close this whole episode with an action step. We're gonna record this episode, it's and and hit the hit the button, we're gonna publish it, and we'll just be out there in the world. But probably we won't go back and think about it very much other than I'll make some social media and you'll take some clips, and we'll send it out to our email list. And that's all great. I'm gonna go to future me.org. And send us both a link to this episode 10 years in the future. Because this is just a website you can go to when you send yourself an email, and it's going to pop up into your inbox later. And I use this tool for myself a lot. And I recommend it for clients. To write yourself a note that's really important for you to read later. Because while journaling is great. Journaling doesn't just naturally pop back up in your life. And there is nothing like seeing a former version of yourself to realize how very valuable all the stuff you've gone through is. So I'm going to set this one for 10 years a time capsule. Awesome. And I totally invite the audience do the same. Write yourself a letter. Take a note. Where are you now in your relationship? What have you learned in the last couple years and your relationships? And yeah, send it off to yourself in the distant future, like 10 years? Well, long. It's a while it's a while. Awesome. Thanks for having this conversation with me.

Ken Hamilton
Thank you.

Joli Hamilton
Relationships can be really messy, can drop. And that's good news. And keep talking to each other and

Ken Hamilton
gratitude. Gratitude.

Joli Hamilton
Thanks so much. Thank you