Unlocking the Power of Non-Monogamy: Lessons from a Year of Opening

4 minute read

Are you curious about exploring non-monogamy but feeling uncertain about how to navigate this new terrain? As a depth psychologist and experienced practitioner of non-monogamous relationships, I've guided countless individuals through their journey of opening up. Today, I'm excited to share some key insights from my "Year of Opening" program, where participants delve deep into the complexities of non-traditional relationships.

The Surprising Journey of Self-Discovery

When many people consider non-monogamy, they often focus solely on the logistics of managing multiple relationships. However, what my participants consistently discover is that the journey is primarily about self-growth. As one participant noted, "I didn't realize that working on these things would focus so much on myself... I was caught off guard by the amount of interpersonal work that I had to do."

This self-discovery process can be both challenging and rewarding. It often involves confronting long-held beliefs, addressing personal insecurities, and developing a deeper understanding of one's needs and desires. The beauty of this work is that it not only enhances your capacity for non-monogamous relationships but also improves your overall emotional intelligence and self-awareness.

Tools for Navigating Non-Monogamy

Throughout the Year of Opening, participants learn and practice various tools to help them navigate the complexities of non-monogamous relationships. Here are a few that participants found particularly impactful:

1. The Inner Council: This technique involves personifying different aspects of yourself to better understand your internal conflicts and desires. One participant shared, "The inner council work just really helped me to have conversations with parts of me that weren't getting a voice."

2. Imago Dialogue (developed by Harville Hendrix and Helen LaKelley Hunt): This structured communication method helps partners truly hear and understand each other. A participant described it as "an instant game changer" in their relationship, allowing them to feel heard and understood in new ways.

3. Projection and Recollection: Learning to recognize when you're projecting your own issues onto a partner and then "recollecting" those projections can be transformative. As one participant put it, "Once I was able to see that and work through that, so much of our conflict was kind of born out of that."

4. Neurosomatic Intelligence (NSI) Drills: These exercises help regulate your nervous system, especially during challenging conversations. A participant noted how these tools helped them remain calm during difficult discussions with an ex-partner.

The Power of Community

One of the most valuable aspects of the Year of Opening is the sense of community it fosters. Participants repeatedly emphasized how sharing experiences with others in similar situations helped normalize their feelings and challenges. As one person put it, "It really helps to put your own shit into perspective."

This community aspect also provides a safe space for vulnerability and growth. Participants can practice new communication skills, share their struggles, and celebrate their victories together. The support and wisdom of the group often prove invaluable in navigating the complexities of non-monogamy.

Embracing the Complexity

It's important to remember that there's no one-size-fits-all approach to non-monogamy. What works for one person or couple may not work for another. The Year of Opening encourages participants to explore what feels right for them, rather than adhering to any prescribed notion of how non-monogamy "should" look.

As you consider your own journey into non-monogamy, remember that it's okay to take your time, to question, and to explore. The process is as much about getting to know yourself as it is about opening up your relationships.

A Journey Worth Taking

While the Year of Opening requires a significant time investment, participants consistently find it worthwhile. As one person reflected, "I feel like if we had done the work together, the outcome could have been different." Whether you're just curious about non-monogamy or already practicing it, investing in your personal growth and relationship skills can lead to more fulfilling, authentic connections.

Remember, the goal isn't perfection, but rather developing the tools and self-awareness to navigate relationships with greater ease and authenticity. As you embark on your own journey of opening up, be patient with yourself, stay curious, and don't hesitate to seek support from experienced professionals or communities.

Non-monogamy can be a powerful path to self-discovery and deeper connections. Are you ready to take the first step?

Episode 162 Transcript

This transcript was auto-generated, and may contain some errors.

Joli Hamilton
Welcome to play with fire the podcast for people who are ready to custom build their love.

Ken Hamilton
We're talking about non monogamy however you design it as an individuation opportunity,

Joli Hamilton
want to leave default and make your life spectacularly you? You're in the right place

can we have an amazing group program? I absolutely love it.

Ken Hamilton
It's the best I love being in it.

Joli Hamilton
But when I say when I say group program, so many people are like, already they They packed their bags, they've shut the door. They're like, No, no, thank you. First off, I am not going to share my private business with a random group random. That's not happening. Second. This myself is special. It's different. And also, I don't even know whether I need any help doing this opening up stuff anyways. And let me say, I actually agreed with you. If you those are your thoughts. I agreed with you. Several years ago, several years ago, I was working as a coach, I was working privately with everyone and getting good results. I enjoyed the results I was getting. But some things seemed like I was struggling with something. And I thought at first I was struggling because I just I do like to teach. I like to be in groups of people where I'm guiding, leading where I can. But then I someone challenged me on the idea that private work was actually a good idea for this. And they challenged me by saying, well, don't you tell everybody that they need to find community? Like yes, I do. We even work on that. In the private work, it's a good point. And so many of my clients were struggling because they didn't have community and they didn't know how to find community. And some of them really couldn't find community or not in ways that felt safe to their body minds. So I gave it a whirl and I started the year of opening. And it turns out that I actually no require my private clients to be part of a group. And I want everyone to listen to this episode of playing with fire because it is unlike any other this episode is the voices actual voices from of people, five people who have already completed the year of opening, five people coming in from very different walks of life, different backgrounds, different desires, different needs, different imaginations of what relationship are. And this is just their candid share about what they didn't know they didn't know, and what they got out of the process of being part of a group. Even if you're not going to do the year of opening, I would listen to this, I would listen to the stories of how people experienced the shift the paradigm shift from a monogamous mindset from a monogamous paradigm that ruled their whole way of thinking to what if I co create relationships with everybody I want to in the ways I want to

Ken Hamilton
tell you, it was so much fun to listen to everybody's stories. I heard them along the way in each cohort, but listening to their own reflections of like how that all landed for them was, it was fun. It was really exciting and fun.

Joli Hamilton
So this episode is like we said five different people. There are two couples, and one individual who went through on their own. And what we've done is we did these interviews individually and then we've created a panel last episode out of them so you can hear these different voices and different answers to the questions. I hope that you come away feeling like you understand better what it's like and why someone would would courageously take the step to be in a group and I hope that you can learn something from the moves the things that people said. They didn't expect the ways they didn't know they were going to be changed. So yeah, dive in.

Ken Hamilton
What was going on in your life when you first came across Julie's work and entered into the year of opening?

Speaker 1
So I was in a newish relationship. I'm very much madly in love with my partner. Still Still am. But I had recently come out of A bit abusive marriage was unpacking a lot of trauma. And I was with my partner, we were long distance. And we were both kind of we did not want to be we met each other not wanting to be in relationship. And, and I was the one who was like, well, we could just like, be non monogamous. And at that point like I had been dating, a lot of people are not committed to any one person thinking that it was not thinking that it was non monogamy, but just kind of very casually dating people. Which by

Joli Hamilton
the way, I love that, but like not enough people recognize that you still get to date casually. And that doesn't mean that you're non monogamous. Yes, these are two distinct experiences. That's more

Speaker 1
for sure. And I was very, I was just, I was just non exclusive is what I would say. And I was open with with people about that. But I had read Polly secure. And so So I told Ryan, I told Ryan about the book, etc. And he read it and he's like, This is amazing. I didn't even know that this was possible, like life like this is great. And that was before we even ever met in person. And so flash forward, we, we say that we messed up and fell in love. And we did not we not mean to we didn't want to. But we found ourselves. Both of us processing our own relational trauma, while also madly in love with the other while also wanting the long distance was was not traditional, especially having kids and not having a plan to like move closer. And then also on top of that the non non monogamy and I was dealing with just so much pain, it was it was incredibly painful. And I was constantly questioning whether or not I could do a relationship that way because it felt like it felt like I was either lying to myself, or putting myself through undue pain. And I didn't know if this was a trauma response. I was just I was coming up against all the things and and so Ryan actually found you on Instagram. And you were offering like free, like, meet with me for free. And he signed up and then he told me said Okay, listen, I just signed up for this, to meet this person. You can come with me if you want or not. But like I figured What's there to lose? And I said yes, immediately because I was like if there's I was looking for someone to tell me that I wasn't crazy. Or to either be like, oh, yeah, this Yeah, this isn't for you. Like, like, Oh, honey. Yeah, right. And I totally trust other people's opinions.

Joli Hamilton
That's a really hard thing to do when somebody is not like when you're not sure like to view that from the inside and say, I don't know, is this even possible? Is this am I actually damaging myself to get to know so important, but also a lot of us are only exposed to people who have a monogamous paradigm. So to only get their perspectives, even if they're wonderful therapists, wonderful helpers, wonderful friends, if they their bias is going to make it impossible for them to not. Yeah, how about opinion?

Speaker 1
Let's like, Oh, here's the problem. I have, you know,

Joli Hamilton
looking yourself in the eye.

Speaker 1
Right. Um, and also, I mean, as you know, since this is since, like, the science and research is so monogamous based Yeah. Like, it was even scary to Google. Yeah, because even people who I would say consider themselves to be non monogamous professionals. There was still ones that like the framing of it and the approach of it, I didn't I was like, there's so I don't I don't quite trust it, you know, and so yeah, it just felt like there was a lot of scary stuff out there. And as I was learning to trust myself again and believe myself and reconnect with myself, I just was in a very tender place. And so that's, that's where we're you both enter. Okay.

Joli Hamilton
In a tender place. I think that That's really familiar for others, like, whether you were whether that someone brought this to you and you're like, what you want me to what now? Because that'll bring up your tenderness, or whether you're like, I think this is what I need. But you said you were unpacking your trauma history, you're like you're doing your work. And frequently, non monogamy or the introduction of it happens at a time when we're also unpacking other stuff. Like, that's not uncommon. The question for me is, can you hold the tension of like, Yep, I'm going to do both of these things. And which means I'm going to have to pace myself. And I can't just try to be this perfect, polyamorous person, I'm going to have to allow both of these paths to unfold simultaneously, which, by the way, I think you did a magnificent job of of holding that and naming it and not hide, not trying to hide it or be perfect in group, you know, trying to like, no, no, I got this. I got this at all.

Speaker 1
Yeah, I appreciate you saying that. I, I don't I don't know how I could have done it. Otherwise. Also, it's like, I'm going through this too. I remember you telling me, I think when we first met with you, to give you a year, you know, and I see it similar to like, the MBAs of like, I think I made an agreement with Ryan or to myself that like, I wasn't going to break up with him. Yep. In and I feel like we I don't know if there was if there was that as part of group but like, in that year, like, and, and so like that kind of that container, created the safety for me to rail against it as much as possible, because then I was like, Okay, I'm gonna choose to trust Jolie. Even if I can't trust myself, in this moment, I'm going to choose to trust joli. And if at the end, you know, like, I'm like, No, this is not for me, at least like I know that I did it. But I can't fully know that if I don't allow myself to just feel it all to just go for I

Speaker 2
was floundering. I had been in the triad at the time. And we had tried a couple of different resources, including group therapy. That kind of devolved into a blame Bobby kind of session, which wasn't very helpful. And I knew that we weren't, there was a lot we didn't know. But we needed some kind of guidance, we had tried to look up resources on the internet. But again, we just weren't all on the same page. The Triad fell apart. My husband at the time, ended his relationship with my girlfriend and his partner at the time. And our marriage was on the rocks. And I wanted to find some resources to help us to just have a better relationship with each other. I feel like something had gone awry. And there was a like a day long. I found it on Instagram, a day long session. And I'm drawing a blank on the name of the of the influencer, who's who is also Polly. But they had a day long session. And Julie's session was one of these. It was Elizabeth Cunningham. That was the name yes, Elizabeth Cunningham. And in that day, long session, I was taking so much notes, like, I write in my iPad, and I was I was, it was an excellent session. And after that, I followed up with Jolie because I her work on, like, the stuff you were talking about with jealousy, like that was one of the things that really was was striking for me. And I kept thinking, Yeah, I know, jealousy is mine to deal with. I just don't think it's only mine to deal with. Like, I think there were some parts that were the responsibility of my partners, but I couldn't like I just, I knew I needed to name something, but I couldn't name it and then listening to your session, Julie. I was like, I think I can find some help there. And that's how I reached out and got in touch with you.

Joli Hamilton
I really appreciated I remember those early days. I really appreciated you being so vulnerable and real about how much pain was present for you. It was not I remember thinking this is a person who knows that something's wrong, wants to put in the effort, wants to do the work, but maybe doesn't even know where like where to begin because so much had gone off the rails. Yes, it's a hard spot to to lean into and I'm, yeah, I moved that you are willing to show up for yourself that way.

Speaker 2
Like everything had just gone so wrong, it couldn't get a whole lot worse, I might as well get into it and do the hard stuff. And hope for better.

Speaker 3
We were pretty confident we were 100%, empty nested at that point. So right your children were grown and flown, although there was a like a six week stint where one of them came back for a little while in the middle of the work. So I was pretty sure it wasn't positive. But we were in the space of, you know, we got married when we were 23. So let's even go back to that space. And yeah, I'm just right. That could be a whole nother thing. But so fast forward to now it was what a year and a half ago at this point, we found ourselves in this space of, okay, we have a great life. But one of the areas that felt like there was still some room for growth and deeper understanding of ourselves was in how we related to one another sexually. So we were in that space. And we were also like, we I have a friend who had recently stepped into the BDSM community and really dear friends through as she was going through that she was sharing all of her learnings and processes, and it was some point along in talking to her that she sent me your TED Talk.

Joli Hamilton
The good old conversion, conversion talk first introduction

Speaker 3
was an honestly, that was probably two years before, like, we were ready, right? So that was something that came into the field, it was there, but there was no like, initial, like, oh, my gosh, we got to do something about this, or with this, right, it was just kind of there for a while, do you want to add anything? Yeah.

Speaker 4
And we were kind of, you know, to speak for me, you know, empty nesting. And then I felt like, we were stuck in a routine of sexually do just the same thing over and over different day, and, you know, it was getting boring to me. And then, you know, I was, you know, really feel like a wanting to explore more into myself, and what I really wanted and, you know, was drawn to like, kink, and you know, even you know, considering my sexuality and all kinds of things just like everything was was, you know, up for grabs to explore. And, you know, then we, when we found out about you, I think we were coming home from somewhere. And we took your little quiz about how to do the quiz that you open your relationship, and we ended up having a call with you later that we can. And you know, it just kind of snowballed from there. And, you know,

Joli Hamilton
I just love that you both took your time, there was no rush, you were presented with the idea that there was exploration, but you didn't rush you, you allow that to unfold.

Speaker 4
Yeah. And we're, you know, we've been doing the same thing, you know, in this this marriage, just, you know, with the, the relationship escalator, you know, and that in the end, we're looking for, you know, thinking outside the box, and you know, so that that's an and we were still very happy to get you know, we

Joli Hamilton
that's what I would draw a real highlight on there. You when I first talked to you, I remember you both just being so in love, I'm so happy and so successful by all the outer measures that the world could possibly ask of you. You done all the things and you were still doing them you there was no, oh, you know, this just doesn't work. You appeared to really want to uplevel in some way. And you kind of didn't, you seemed to me like you weren't even quite sure what that meant. Exactly.

Speaker 4
We didn't know what it meant, you know, and we were very intrigued to. I was very intrigued to learn what we were going to learn from the year of opening and even though not knowing what we want to do with it,

Speaker 5
to try and be succinct with that a lot. But I had been it started a long distance open relationship and that had been going on for six, seven months, something like that. And it was my first experience with it. I like kind of heard the concept before Um, but when I met my now partner, the first time we talked on the phone, she just kind of mentioned it and then gave me a book to read. But I was in a place where I did not want a relationship. That's the last thing I was looking for. I was recently widowed. And just kind of in a place where I just didn't want to be responsible for somebody, I didn't want to be in a relationship. And so I was just kind of dating and having fun. And I ended up falling in love with somebody. And we kind of talked through a way that we could kind of both be our own people, and still see what we had together. But, you know, by the time I discovered Joli, we've been doing it and we were, we were okay. But I would call it rudderless. Just kind of being buffeted by the storm, and just kind of like taking each wave as it came. And a lot of how we operated was, well, we don't really know what we're doing. We don't know what our boundaries are. I, you know, I just, I was in a place where I didn't know what I wanted or didn't want until I experienced it. And that was working. Ish. Not really, but kind of, and I discovered, I think it was the, you know, the the pillars of opening and kind of read through it. And I was like, oh, man, there's, there's a guidebook here and I'd read a handful of books, but it just, you know, there's reading a book, and then there's experiencing life. And so, I would say that, like, you know, I was practicing non monogamy but I didn't have a coach to use the sports reference. Just very fresh and just kind of, you know, doing whatever came up. So,

Joli Hamilton
what was happening for you in that, in that experience? Did you feel you said rudderless? Did you feel enthusiastic about it for yourself, like were your concerns more about your own experience or about like, like continuing in a, in a, in a particular path with this new person who you were caring about,

Speaker 5
um, I was, I was really excited, I was excited for me. I was excited for all the opportunities that I felt that I had. And I was, I was excited that I felt that I could fall in love with this person, and not feel trapped or caged. And because of that, one thing, we had a motto early on. That was just fuck, it hurt me. And so I was just excited to be doing all of it. It felt fresh and new and exciting. And there was a lot of pain and a lot of, you know, difficult moments, but overall, no, I was I was thrilled. And I was enthusiastic. And I was able to relate relationships I'd had previous to that. I felt like I was always kind of keeping an arm out. And I would, you know, I would bring somebody in but only so much. And if they kind of reciprocated to that level, they'll go okay, let's, let's push this back a little bit. And with what we had kind of talked through initially, I didn't feel that and I was so excited to just like, fully profess and explore all the feelings I was having for this person without being worried about the door shutting behind me and just, you know, the Oh no, I've made a terrible mistake. Like, so. No, I was I was definitely excited.

Ken Hamilton
So that, maybe that brings us to our next question. Yeah. Yeah. So so what were you hoping to learn or change?

Speaker 2
I was looking for mostly ways to deal with what was going on inside of me. I was feeling a lot of jealousy, seeing my girlfriend, get things from my husband that I had wanted in my own relationship, but thought I could never have and so I kind of just accepted that. And I was also an individual therapy at the time and one of the things As I was working on was actually voicing my needs. And so it's like the intersection of me stating what I needed, but also understanding the dynamics of being in the triad. It was I wanted to, I wanted to find a way to make it all work, I felt like I was, I was juggling and the balls were in the air, but they weren't all equally weighted. And so it was just like, I didn't know how much effort to put into whichever parts. And like I wanted help figuring out, you know, okay, this ball is a little heavier, you want to put a little bit more effort here and, you know, just understand how to move things in a in a more balanced way, because it wasn't whatever we were doing wasn't working. Yeah.

Joli Hamilton
I'm curious, Bobby, what, when you were in that stage where you were doing your individual work, and naming, I feel like you're naming that you were in the midst of a lot of justice, jealousy feeling and actually seeing you had lots of evidence that your partner could do was able to do the things that you'd been asking for, but they weren't willing or able to do them for you? How, how did it shift for you to start having a place to at least name that? Did that help change it? Or? Or was it actually frustrating? I really don't know how it felt for you. To come to the awareness to have we put a name on it. But now you have to look right at it. How did it feel to look right out that Justice jealousy?

Speaker 2
So by the time I had gotten to the point where I could identify that what I was feeling was justice, jealousy. The Triad had dismantled. My husband and I were already in the separation phase of divorcing. But I remember a part before that, before we got to the divorce stage where I was like, okay, alright, he just doesn't have it in him. For me. That's okay. It's okay. Like, I just I just wanted to hear some kind of some kind of confirmation that, you know, it just wasn't there that I that. I just, I felt like I needed to hear the confirmation that it wasn't there. So that I would know that it's okay to seek it elsewhere. But we were in such a dynamic where I couldn't get that confirmation. And even when I got to the point where I asked for what I needed, I was like, Okay, I see that you don't have this for me, while I was going to be in your program actually was not going to be dated. That was one of the things that I stated going into the program was like, I wouldn't be dating, my focus would be on our relationship. You and me husband, and I wanted to put the focus there. But when I identified that, okay, you didn't have this, this caring, nurturing and romantic way of giving in you for me anymore. I wanted to be able to seek it elsewhere. But it's not like I needed permission. I wanted some kind of acknowledgement that, that he saw within himself that he didn't have that for me, and that it was okay for me to go find it elsewhere. Because I shouldn't have to give up my desire to have those needs met, because he isn't capable of doing it for me. And so it was just like that. That's what I wanted from there.

Joli Hamilton
Yeah, I heard you. I heard you then. And I hear you now, I hear you now with all the wisdom of now many, many months, having worked actively on this, the wisdom of you seeking wanting validation, just of what you were like, I feel this, I see this, this looks true. Can you my my partner, just validate that this is true. You don't need to fix it, can you validate that this is true so that we can make a new normal together can we can negotiate some new path together. And I want to acknowledge that it didn't go the way you wanted. And not all relationships continue. When faced with a true reckoning. And I you know, I give you a lot of credit for sticking with the work of learning relationships in the face of not getting that validation not getting to hear Hey, no, I'm not available to provide you with a romantic connection. I'm not available to provide you emotional validation. I just I saw you choose yourself. I did. I can't imagine a stronger choice to make in the face of all that pain. When it might have been tempting to people please define to lean in and just just sacrifice or martyr yourself to the relationship not even to your partner, but to the to the cause of the relationship was really courageous to watch.

Speaker 5
Like, in short, everything I owe us like a work analogy or school or, you know, anytime, if you're, if you're the best at what you're doing in a room of people, that's a very difficult way to learn, and you can learn. But that's a tough, slow road. If you drop yourself into a room of people who are all much better than you, you're going to learn very quick. And you're going to see, you know, a ceiling you never imagined. And so, I think, I think really, what I was craving and what books couldn't provide is just real every day, people and the things that they were working through, as well as not that I leaned on, you know, necessarily other people's experiences, but it was nice to see people who had been in similar situations, and had come out of them, and had moved beyond that. So I don't know that there was anything specific that I came in wanting to learn. But I knew that there was a lot to learn.

Joli Hamilton
That's a good spot to be to know that you don't know what you don't know yet. And you need to be in some contexts where you could be exposed to it. That's a strong learning position. It's

Ken Hamilton
a strong learning position. And the idea of coming in, like, I don't know what I want to learn, because I don't know what there is to learn, but I'm gonna pay attention. Like coming in like that. That's awesome.

Joli Hamilton
Yeah. And it showed, I want to I want to offer back that it showed in your approach to you would sometimes have a some either resistance or or some, like, I don't know, I don't know that that makes sense. And I would, I witnessed you allowing yourself to be in the resistance of it, or in the, in the, I don't know whether that's going to work, and to just stay there and not force yourself to pretend that you already knew the answer, or you already had it figured out and just be in that uncomfortable place of not yet knowing. And from my position, as you know, a guide in that moment, watching you do that also fed the group they watched you sit in that discomfort and I saw other people respond like wow, okay, maybe we can just be with this and not lose hope that there will be a beyond that there is something next. So that was something really strong that you brought to the group. And I'm grateful for it.

Speaker 5
Thanks for saying that. I think a memory that spurred is that particular time, I was also really open to being challenged, I felt so confident about my relationship. But I also knew that there were a lot of things that you know, from the outside may seem, you know, that we started again, I wanted people I knew and trusted and loved to, with care challenge every decision I was making, because I felt so confident that I wanted them to find something. But if you find something I'm happy to hear because I'm not I don't want to hide from anything. I want everything upfront and taking that into the class like I was ready to be challenged. And if there was something that I didn't agree with, or that sat wrong with me, I wanted to sit with that and find out why. And just take that. Take that heart. Yeah.

Joli Hamilton
Well, I know it mattered to me, and I watched it change how some people who were experiencing resistance that would have been more passive, like I'm disengaging, I'm gonna, I'm gonna drop out. I'm going to drop back. Stay more present. Yeah,

Ken Hamilton
you helped demonstrate that. In in the group, it was okay to challenge because, as Joli was saying, there are people who are like, No, I shouldn't challenge I shouldn't like, you know, rock the boat, and you're like, I have a question. I have a concern. I

Joli Hamilton
have a thought I don't think that's gonna work at all.

Ken Hamilton
And so they everybody else got to observe that and then relax into asking their own questions.

Joli Hamilton
And that also got let go Give me a chance to be opposed, which I really appreciate. Like when I'm, when I'm in that, like educator role, there's a power dynamic there. And some people just will not say, like, that's not working for me that explanation doesn't work, or I don't think that that holds water, in my situation, at least. And one of my goals is to show that these are just, these are consciousness methods, like you're just, you're gonna apply them to your own relationship, I'm not the expert of your relationship, I am an expert on relating. And so you provided that pushback that let me make the space more courageous. And I can't do that without people to be in that spot of like, Yeah, I'm gonna push a little, I'm gonna be a little resistant. And I'm just really glad we get to also name that here. Because I think that's something that people don't always expect in groups, they expect that the guide the teacher to be like, want to be the expert and not be challenged. And that's very much not how I hold myself, but how do you show it? How do you demonstrate it other than in class? So this

Speaker 4
was an interesting question for me, because I didn't know what I was getting into. And because we were just, totally, totally novices beginners in this whole realm, and, you know, coming from a conservative upbringing, and all of all tradition and everything. And, and so I guess the main thing I was hoping, hoping to, to learn from this experience is, how can we do this, and then still have and still stay happily married, and still have a great, you know, relationship that we've always had? And if anything else make it even stronger? You know, because of our new knowledge and this new way of thinking outside the box for us? You know, that that's so yeah, that that was kind of what I wanted to learn.

Joli Hamilton
And my different, but I kind of thought it might be what what was on your mind? What did you want to learn?

Speaker 3
So, right, though, mentioned the kink arena, right. So when he brought that up, I wasn't, I guess, I wanted to understand whether I had the capacity for that, and what that like, may or may not look like because my initial thing, and probably also kind of why I was looking into this was, Well, maybe if this isn't something I want to do, I can outsource it. Right, I can give that job to somebody else's kind of energetically what was going on for me there. And I so I guess I was hoping to learn whether I had the capacity to be in an open relationship? And if the answer was yes, kind of what that would really look like. Yeah,

Joli Hamilton
I I hold in such tenderness, the idea that you were willing to just be in the question. And I think what you just said, is really important. Just being able to entertain your capacity. Right? And that brings me to that first pillar of opening that we talked about in the salon, can you be in self consent for the exploration, you don't have to decide to do any particular thing in opening or in BDSM? or anything? But if you can consent to be in being in the exploration, then everything opens up? That's it? Yeah.

Speaker 3
I love learning, right? And my, my North Star for my life, is the term Know thyself, or is the phrase know thyself, like I want. That's my deepest desire. So as the work started unfolding, I could see that this was also a path to knowing myself at a deeper level. So that was really when the buy in happened for me when I saw that that was going to be part of it. Yeah.

Joli Hamilton
I so I got to ask the follow up, then. Was that your experience? Do you know yourself? Better now?

Speaker 3
Yeah. And I still think there's more to learn.

Joli Hamilton
I agree. I agree. Yeah. The two of you consistently demonstrated that you were in your you're in that constant learning state, which was beautiful. From my perspective, it was wonderful to witness and I watched you go through some discomfort and stay in the well I can at least be in the learning. Even if the things we're we're doing right now are uncomfortable. Like if you

Ken Hamilton
were you were role models in that way. Absolutely. We saw you. Yes. Sit your way through discomfort, picking up everything you could do. To learn about yourself, it's really beautiful to watch.

Unknown Speaker
Thank you. Thank you.

Speaker 1
So that's an interesting thing, because I don't feel like I approached it thinking, what do I want to be different? I think I mean, I guess this is similar the same thing, but I wanted to figure out, I came in wanting to figure out whether like, am I normal? But then also like, Am I hurting myself? And I, you know, am I crazy? And then also are like, How can I do? I don't want to say do this better in like, be better, but like, how can Ryan and I, we were working so hard already, we were, we had read so many books we'd already on our own, without anyone telling us had already written a relationship agreement, like very early on, that was kind of like, we need to have this on paper, because there's just so many moving parts. And I think I was like, exhausted, by like, trying to figure it out. And like, second guessing myself, and then also like reading all of the stuff and just being like, well, if they knew our situation, though, would they still be saying this? Yeah. And so like, I wanted to have that I wanted to be able to bring all my doubts to someone and be like, okay, yeah, but I don't think you've encountered this case, in your research.

Joli Hamilton
I appreciate that so much. Because we really do all come with the like, we have unique histories, and then we're bringing two or more people together in one, constellation and stuff is gonna get unique, so that's incorrect. And the uniqueness does not necessarily mean that it's insurmountable. But we need we I think we actually need that. I think it's beautiful that you were willing to entertain the question at, when you are already exhausted. You're already tired. So way to go. Thank you,

Speaker 1
thank you. It was it was like a different kind of job. It's not exhaustion, but it was a different kind of work. It was a relief, to not have to guide to not have to like be on our own and figure that out. So having, having again, I think I borrowed container from you, I don't know if I've been used if I use that before, but having this the container of the group. And I guess like what if I think about what I wanted to be different is I wanted I wanted more assuredness in myself that for myself, that I could pursue a relationship like this, like a non monogamous relationship. Apart from like it, because I wasn't evaluating whether I wanted to be with my partner, I wasn't evaluating whether I wanted to be with Ryan, it was like, I wanted to figure it out. For me, because it felt like there was just so much going on that I was like, This feels like there's something here but I can't put my finger on it. And so I think I entered just like wanting to have that support, and have people who, who had done research, you know, who were professionals that I could regularly bring things to, and kind of like keep just keep have a safe place to work it out.

Ken Hamilton
So we've talked about the container. What was it like to be a part of a group all talking about all this relationship stuff?

Speaker 5
I mean, I think that that strikes to the previous question of what I was looking for, and that was kind of

Unknown Speaker
secondhand real world issues. And some of them I don't want to say unsolvable but, you know, really difficult things that people were working through. I just, I, I didn't have

Speaker 5
people were understanding of me being non monogamous, especially after being widowed. I feel like I got kind of a pass when I would tell people that like, Oh, of course, you're doing that now. Like, that's the you know, that makes sense. Or you should do whatever you want, but I didn't have anybody. If there was anybody I went to confide in, I felt like I had to get them up to speed first and even then they still weren't fully, you know, at a level to be able to talk through difficult issues and So having people willing to share things that were going on in their lives in this area, just to sit and listen,

Unknown Speaker
was was huge.

Speaker 5
I mean, that's, that's the, probably the biggest draw for me. And I think the, as any group does, it took some time to build. But you know, over the months, and kind of the gentle shares and stuff, it, it relatively quickly became a really safe space for just about anything, and it was really comforting to have that community and just to kind of, again, not being the smartest person in the room being able to have here's a situation that I'm dealing with, can anybody speak to this? And, you know, having multiple people be like, Yeah, I've dealt with that a ton. I'm dealing with that right. Now, here's what worked for me, and here's what didn't, and maybe it'll work for you and doesn't but and then I don't know if this is necessarily the group, but kind of having that. I know, once a week at this, at this time, I have this space that I can inhabit. And so even when I'm not there, I know that it exists for me. And especially on the days where I didn't feel like saying anything, or I didn't even want to be there. It was nice to just kind of sit and listen, it was also a really good way to as somebody who, you know, it felt rudderless or being buffeted, or the fuck it hurt me ethos of like, let's just do things until they feel bad, and then kind of work back and we can figure out boundaries that way. Just listening to other people talk and hearing something be like, Oh, respect, that will never work for me. Like I've just discovered a boundary. And I didn't have to do something that hurt me to find it.

Joli Hamilton
I just love that. So very much. I feel like when I'm talking to people about being in a group, and then they're feeling scared about sharing their most vulnerable stuff, like, Yeah, but one of the things you'll you'll potentially get is that moment where you don't hurt yourself or your partner, because you witness someone else going through something. And we so rarely get to do that in our mundane lives. And I watched it happen in your cohort in particular, like there were several times where somebody said, Oh, well, I'm not going to do that. So thanks. And I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry, that's happening right now. And it's something that I think it's hard to believe will happen. But also you were very vulnerable about, like just saying what was I remember witnessing You and your partner, just call yourselves in on like, Hey, I I'm out of integrity. In this boundary holding right here, I'm out of like, and using that safe space to be a place to just say, Yeah, we're gonna mess up. Can we now do that and be witnessed? And it was, I mean, you were creating something with them, I can't do that. Like, I can't do that top down, you have to do that together, I can just provide the space. So I'm so grateful you were willing to.

Speaker 5
And I want to clarify. One thing in there is that it's not. There were things where somebody would share just a facet that they loved about their relationship. Like, I'm not talking about bad things or being out of integrity, like somebody would just like, oh, this is my favorite part of like, how I'm doing my relationship, and that would strike me but like, I don't want that. That's right. So it's not even even more.

Joli Hamilton
I love that even more. Yeah, like something that you could celebrate for them. They'll be like, oh, yeah,

Speaker 5
with absolutely no judgment. And, like, I'm so glad to hear this, because now I'm able to be like, oh, yeah, now I know that I don't want that for myself. And, and then also things that I'd be like, Hmm, that sounds really difficult, but maybe there's a part of me that wants, wants to do that. Maybe that's something I could work on in the future, but just that whole range that I would have never been exposed to otherwise.

Speaker 4
You know, I we mentioned to you that we're in the plant medicine community, and those groups can get very intimate where you're sharing very vulnerably and so I I have gotten my feet wet in that those spaces. Now, however, you know, in this was a completely different space that you know, we I had no knowledge of or expectations of, you know, I just didn't know what I didn't know. And, and then being in the, the Zoom group with, you know, a bunch of other new people, you know, it was, you know, helpful that I had been in the, you know, the spaces to to get me through that, but it it, it wasn't, didn't seem too challenging, but the group in itself, it seemed, there was a little it was it was slow to warm up, it took several weeks before I felt connected with the group. And then, you know, by the end of the year, it's, you know, like when I'm done, you know, the, the all cohort your opening community calls and recognize someone from my coercing, hey, how you doing good to see, you know, it's your family. And it's that you it merged into that family, like we're on this bus together and taking it to the end and just, you know, supporting and, you know, in the, in the chats outside the chats, you know, through, you know, just just, you know, continued support for everybody. And, you know, there was a wealth of information that the community supported. When we had questions, we would just pose it out and throw it into the, like, the signal space and, you know, got great response and feedback there. It's so yeah, had a very positive experience with the group. And you know, even though it was slow to build up the ramp up. Yeah,

Joli Hamilton
I love the slow build. It's, it's can be like, at the beginning, it can be like, Okay, who's gonna be first who's, it's a little like going skinny dipping? Who's going to take off their clothes? First. We know, we're, we're, we know what we're all here to do. Who's gonna do it? I love that. I love that. And you know what I would say, I think Laura went first in our group and helped build community consistently showing up to like, just okay, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna share this raw question, this thing I don't even know. And like really helped build, because I can't do that alone. I can only do it when everybody decides, Okay, we're going in. And it was awesome to witness.

Speaker 3
Yeah, I like group work, right? I have a background, I'm a certified life coach. And I've run groups. So it was nice to be on the other side of the table for that. Right. Like, I just I know, that shame happens in community. So it has to be healed in community. So that's where I think the group format is exactly the right format for this kind of work. Because it's one thing to sit alone and do the work and do all the things. But until you put it in practice, in community, it's just like, that's really where all the magic and the healing really happens. So I the group was never the group work was never going to be a problem for me. Like that was like, it was more of the content of but I knew once I could make peace with the content that being witnessed, and, you know, there's wisdom in a group, so kind of to tag back to what Bill was saying, right, the one week, in particular, I feel like we're talking about is when we were trying to figure out how to have the conversation with the kids. Yeah, and how much group wisdom how it was, like, we pulled pieces from things, a lot of people said, that created the space for us to be able to do that. So, so really brilliantly. And so you know, like we're celebrating how it went. It's

Joli Hamilton
that was amazing to watch. And I think it it actually, it's something I get to witness throughout all the cohorts I get to witness when there is there is there's a wisdom in a group that is so much more than you could ever get out of a book. It's why I don't sell my curriculum as a standalone course because I really believe that it is the collective wisdom that just create something because that I remember that moment. And it was this weaving together of different people's experiences and their empathy, their deep empathy for your worry, your concern and your excitement and just being present to that. I remember just feeling like there's the tapestry of wisdom right there just coming together. No one person could ever create that. That is the beauty of group.

Speaker 1
It was amazing. It was it was incredible. It was so, so helpful. So validating. It would not have been the same one on one at all. Because it really helps to put your own shit into perspective. And to see like the things that other people are going through and just to be like, Oh my god, like, not like, well, I thought I was screwed up, kind of

Joli Hamilton
every once in a while we get one of those where we're like, oh, my gosh, okay, well, it could be a lot harder, right? Yeah.

Speaker 1
Yes, that is true as well. And I mean, I'm sure that like, I saw other members like group, other members of the group their faces, when like, certain things I would bring up, they're like, oh, my god, yeah. So I think we all did it to each other. Just, it normalized it at normalized the individuals and that that showed up for all, as we all are, but like complex, kind, amazing human beings, and to have them like vulnerably just expose all of these parts of their lives. As well as me it just like, it was an incredibly safe space. And it felt like it very quickly became not about whether I can do this relationship in this way with Ryan. And very, for me, like very soon became like, Oh, this is like serious work on myself that I need. And I'm doing it in community.

Joli Hamilton
That sums up my like, that was my my game. That was the hope when I designed it. And it just the thing I most frequently say to people is like, I know, you're imagining, like my private works expensive. i A lot of people are like, I wish I could I wish I could afford that. But that's a lot. I'm like, Okay, what the secret is, this is a 10th of the cost. And, yes, it's more effective. But that's the secret that like, it's hard for some people to accept that that's true. But time and time again, I hear at the end of the year, like, Oh, you were totally right, I needed to have people around me sharing and normalizing and creating a place where I could just say the thing and also witness my heart spots with my partner. When do we get to do that? We just don't, especially amongst peers, it's different when we're doing it in a therapeutic relationship. But when a peer says like, Oh, I see. And I see you holding yourself accountable. cool way to go. Show me how show now show me like, let's, let's all witnessed this together. I watched the two of you do that. And really call yourselves in and be vulnerable to the group. Just saying like, yep, here's where I messed up. And I want to I want to be held in this space, in my truth. And yeah, I just I appreciate it so very much. Yeah,

Speaker 1
it was it was really, really, really powerful. And I think one part that was very important for me, was just with, like, all the questioning I was doing, you know, and, and also being someone who is an intellectual does a lot of research. I can poke holes, easily, you know, if it's just like, well, I'm like, Yeah, Joli Of course, you're gonna say that to me. Because like, that's your job. Or of course, you're like pro non monogamy. And you do a great job of saying, like, I just want you to be open to choose, which I appreciate. But to see. It's one thing to have someone tell you like, oh, well, I've seen this instance or that instance, but to to like actually experience it and have people right and then to see the transformation in others as you're also doing it. I have goosebumps all over right now. Because it's just, it's incredibly powerful.

Joli Hamilton
I literally do too, because that's that is something we can't I could not do that. And that's what you all create. Every cohort comes together 20 people or less, we come together and create something that I could not create. I couldn't create it alone. I couldn't create it even with Ken trying to like somehow duct tape the container together. It's a it is something we literally co create and then every cohort has its own vibe has its own lessons and I love that I love witness. I feel very lucky to get to witness it. But I really loved seeing how Watching someone else make a mistake. And like a mistake that they call up, they're like, Ah, this is not who I meant to be, what could we possibly get from another adult human that will be more valuable than that like that is that is true growth work in witness. Amazing.

Speaker 2
I think the existence of the group actually made it possible for me to do the work. What was happening before I found, the year of opening was that I would be processing on my own. And when I would have those moments of panic, like whenever, when, when I recognized within myself that I had some codependent tendencies, like that hit me so hard. And we were still in the tribe at the time. And, and I didn't have like, the support that was there, it wasn't the support that I needed to, to help me deal with the fact that I just identified that in myself, like, I pride myself on being this independent woman, I don't need nobody. And then to realize, just like how codependent my relationship with my husband was, like, that hit me really, really hard. And I think that being in the group, being able to share in this, it felt like such a safe and welcoming space in which to to share what was going on with me, not only could I get validation, that my experiences, even though there were my experiences, they were they were legit, they were, you know, very valid. And that kind of helped me to go deeper within myself, to explore what was going on under the surface under the layers to just keep peeling back the layers. I think the container of the group really helped me to do that. Because, you know, when I would get together on a Wednesday night, I knew that I was going to be sitting in there and I was going to be doing some work. And yes, I would pick up the work again, at some point during the week. But I feel like there was just this window of time where I could be vulnerable. And then I would close the window and I would get back to life. And I didn't have to be carrying around with me. Like if I compare how I was processing when I was in group, versus when I was reading the codependency book and doing the workbook and how heavy that felt doing it alone. Just, it's night and day for me. And so it's like the safety of the group that it really was that it was the safety of the group that I wasn't going to spiral into. I wasn't going to go down that rabbit hole of just like this is so hard. This is so hard, this is so hard, it's so hard and not see any kind of light. I think having it containerized in the group really helped me to be willing to do the work. That makes

Joli Hamilton
total sense to me, I actually, it's reminding me to have a, you were one of the first people in that particular cohort to just decide to what I what I witnessed was you stepped in with both feet. And and your partner had joined with you originally and did not step in with both feet did not want to show up for the unpacking of the all the stuff, we have to unpack our stuff in order to move forward. And I watched you as as that partner decided not to step in and then decided to leave the group, let let alone your relationship, but just leave the group situation I watched you do the thing that they create. It's the thing I can create a space for it to happen with. But people have to then do the hard thing of I'm going to tell you all how this is hurting. I'm going to tell you how this is hurting and trust that you will see me a person who has Yeah, made mistakes. And I wish I'd done things differently sometimes, but hold me see me just just see me you don't need to tell me whether I'm good or bad. Just see me. And I saw you like create some of that group energy by showing up that way. You you created what became a really fantastically intimate cohort. From my perspective.

Speaker 2
I, I felt like like that was the approach I went into therapy with as well. I felt like if I don't bring up the thing that I need to unpack in this safe space, I'm never going to unpack it. And so it was just like, if I'm going to show up, then I'm going to show up. And I felt like there was so much going on inside of me. I needed to show up because it was it was it was eating me up inside. And I needed to work through it. And I needed I needed support to help me work through it. Yeah.

Joli Hamilton
I'd like to ask a hard question. And you might want to answer it. You might not it's totally okay, but

Unknown Speaker
let me grab some tea. Yeah,

Joli Hamilton
exactly. Um, you know, it is not uncommon for me to have someone be interested in your opening as a way to save a marriage. Sometimes, because they've already opened sometimes because they're trying to open as a way to deal with other issues. And you showed up, and you were very clear that things were already on the rocks, it was really difficult in your world. And you've already been clear here. It didn't, that relationship did not continue. And I'm curious how you would like, how would you conceptualize that now? Was that good, bad? Would you count that success for you at like, there's no word, I could put it in my own words, like what I think happened, but how do you conceive of this experience?

Speaker 2
I think that, like I look at where I am today, and how I am in relationship today. And I would say that the work I did within myself, was successful, that my time in the program was successful. I feel like I'm in. I mean, I'm in an intentional relationship. And that's what I wanted, I wanted to be in relationships, where my partner was choosing to be in relationship with me, where I was choosing to be in relationship with my partner, not that we were bound together by kids or a house or a mortgage, or, or, or a legal structure, like we were actively choosing to be with each other. And my partner right now, like, also has done his own work and continues to do His own work. And I feel the consciousness of that choice, and the emotional safety that it brings. And I feel like, that's something that I hadn't realized was as important to me as it actually is. And it was through doing that work that I was able to really recognize where my values lay in terms of being in relationship with someone. And there was significant misalignment between me and my ex husband. And I feel like if, if he had stuck with it, we would have been able to unpack together. Because we did have a strong foundation, we were married for 15 years, and it was 15. Good years, mostly. But I feel like if we had done the work together, the outcome could have been different. I'm satisfied with the outcome that I got from doing the work. Yeah.

Joli Hamilton
I, I am incredibly proud of the work you did not because you did it with me. But because I watched you choose to you could have just like, pulled the covers over your head and said, this is this is too hard. I know I need to deal with a divorce, I need to deal with healing from that. And I watched you just like stick with I want my relationships, all of them to be better. And therefore I want to know how I'm showing up, you did the self awareness piece full throated like you were so I still see like every time we connect, I'm so impressed with how you are continuing to speak truth. You're continuing to speak it to yourself and to hold the parts of you that are in opposition that are on board with with the way things are going. And that's hard, but I see you doing it. And I'm just so excited for what that means for the world. Like you as a person being in the world. Like just a skilled human at relating. I'm way to go. Way to go. Yeah,

Speaker 2
thank you. I'm looking forward to being in more relationships so that I can just, you know, I did I basically got my masters and relationships now. So we should totally date. And that's just that's basically my swagger on apps. Now. It's just like I've done the relationship work. It'll be good to date me. i

Joli Hamilton
There should be a badge, there should be a little yo badge, then we should just make a badge like you've been verified. Good job. Thanks. Love that. Yeah, the Bobby Bobby gets my stamp of approval. So I have one last question for you. And you can get as specific as you want around this or not. You might be more you might take a more high level look. But I'd love to hear about something that you learned or something that we practiced that made an impact on your relationships, maybe one of the tools that we learned that particularly landed for you, or one of the methods that you started employing or a way that you look at the world differently. So

Speaker 1
I want to say girl I was thinking about that today because I regularly think about about this honestly so I will say I think one of the most powerful treasured things was the inner council work and How I, I was reconnecting with myself. And that that inner work, I did not realize how many parts of me were screaming and getting just like poked at, because of this relationship structure. Um, that just kind of, you know, poked at everything that that your society tells you that all of these things that were just kind of in there just started to like, flare up. And so this very safe, gentle, playful, ongoing exercise of just being curious about who in you is talking. Who's showing up who's upset right now, giving, giving them voices, allowing them to speak. It along with unpacking trauma, it was like coupled, it was just beautifully, like, supported instead of like, feeling like it was competing. I was like, Oh, my God, this is, this is what I meant to be doing right now.

Ken Hamilton
What a feeling. Yeah.

Speaker 1
And I've also taught that to my mom, like giving you credit and stuff. It's like, oh, it's like, like, and now it's like, which part like we talk about our parts, too.

Joli Hamilton
Yeah. This is why the inner Council exists because I wanted to take complex psychology union psychology out of the analysts room, but I have to say, I got goosebumps when you said that just being able to ask yourself, Who in me, think about my own beloved therapist, their green heat taught me to sit with that question when I hated it, and to really personify, and I had learned it in grad school, but then he taught me to sit with it in a gentle, playful way, like you're saying, and now that is exactly what I was hoping I would have the inner counsel rather than making it like, Okay, so we're gonna, like we're gonna Thera pies, this, it really is designed to be a way for you to play with it. And my, my hope is that, we all will start taking this into our friendships and in with our children, oh, my gosh, using that with my children, I don't know about you, but game changer, to just let them know, they don't have to try to be one unified whole, like, it's, it's just too much burden. So I'm so grateful.

Speaker 2
So two things immediately come to mind for me. The first of them is looking at the purpose of a relationship. And when I start dating someone, my time is limited. I am essentially a single mom, I have my kids half the time. And I volunteer a lot. Because that's, that's like part of my self care. And so I look at the relationships that I'm exploring and what the relationships are bringing for me, what purpose are they fulfilling for me? And am I also able to fulfill a purpose that is relevant to the person I'm dating. And that has led me to deescalate a couple of relationships. But that's, that's one of the things where I don't want to ever get into a relationship, again, where it's routine, where we're just in it, because we're in it, like it has to have a purpose. So that was one thing that that came up for me. Another thing that came up for me was the inner counsel, like the inner counsel work just really like that, that lended so well, for me, because it helped me too. It helped me to really have conversations with parts of me that that weren't getting a voice. I wasn't processing thinking of things from from that perspective. And I have I have some inner council members that are that are more vocal than others. But like that work, that I think is the thing that I still use the most right now, that and the NSA drills to actually just like I had a I had a recent conversation with my ex husband, and I was amazingly impressed how, you know, just how well my nervous system just remained regulated during the whole thing. Whereas before, the Bobby have before would not have been able to get her words out because her emotions would have just been so much. They would have choked the words. And so yeah, technically three things then.

Joli Hamilton
I love it. I, Bobby, they're right there. They're right at the top, you're using them. And that's that's the thing. We talked about this at the beginning of your opening. We talked about how so this is good. We want this to be practical. You need to go use all everything that's relevant for you go use it, and there's a lot of stuff we present, but it's each Have you has to decide, okay, what's landing for me? And what am I then going to actually use? What are the tools that matter for me? I love I mean, who needs NSI tools, the neuro somatic intelligence tools more than somebody dealing with someone we were in relationship with, that we are no longer in relationship with. If we were in conflict before, we're gonna be in conflict after. And when we have kids with them. We got to do it like I use NSI for my, my ex relationships all the time. I'm so glad you're finding it a source of resilience, because it's not about it's not about doing it perfect, but a source of resilience because you don't deserve to suffer. While you're having those conversations. Yep. I also, the way you did in our counsel was so I still like we're in our in our group chat, you know, our group chats keep going. And I love hearing you name those inner council members who are like, Oh, we got stuff to say, we have stuff to say we need to be heard. And that's one of the ways that the community too can. When you when you're those parts of you those voices, those pieces that weren't able to be heard, even by you, it's great to hear them yourself. It's another thing altogether to have them feel witnessed by others. That's amazing. So I love that. And I love that you've been so willing to name call it out and say, here they are.

Speaker 2
I love that, that the group in the chat like they they have gotten to know my inner council members as well. And so this was like, when when I'm sharing from the perspective of those council members, like they get where I'm coming from. And that that is that is that isn't it's not magic, necessarily, but it's pretty doggone close.

Joli Hamilton
Yeah, yeah. It's it's definitely the magic of community and intimacy on the level of friendship, like the friendship intimacy that's built. And yeah, like seeking community outside of your dating pool. Good job.

Speaker 5
Yeah, so where to start with this one. I think like most practically, the, the tools that I learned, were kind of the biggest game changers, just learning how to alert myself to being elevated, and learning how that learning to just kind of keep an eye out for that in my body. And realizing that in myself before I start acting on that that is invaluable. More specifically, the imago dialogue was such a, like an instant game changer in in my relationship. I'm chatty, and I can get really, I can get defensive, but I also feel like I have the answers. And so with those combined, you know, if my partner is bringing something to me, I'm immediately kind of all over them. Well, actually, I met this or blah, blah, blah, and and just learning to sit and listen with the first time we did that together. It was like a revelation. And I think we both felt heard and understood in ways that just hadn't happened before.

Joli Hamilton
And that's a funny one because it can feel so clunky. And then you do it you're like, Oh, right.

Speaker 5
And I know it doesn't work for I know it, you know, can work for not every tool is for every person but like for me and just how how much I just want to explain myself, and how that was just I was kind of stepping on my own feet and kind of smothering my partner with that. So that was that was huge identify

Ken Hamilton
with that. Yeah, that the the imago dialogue felt like magic to me. Like, oh, there's a whole other way this can go just a way I never imagined once I stepped away from like you said that, that explaining that will come later.

Speaker 5
And not even and not even using it all the time. But knowing that it's there if you need it. And just being able to Hey, do we need to have you know, this specific style of conversation around this or not? And being able to separate those out? Helps like daily and you know, we have them you know, maybe once a month you know because we're able to Okay, no, I do feel heard we don't know but just having that in the toolbox.

Joli Hamilton
Huge. I like that you're differentiating between sometimes we hit Have we hit a speed bump? We gotta, and we can acknowledge it. And just knowing, Yep, we got it. But to know that you have the tool also allows you to name like, Oh, this is a, this is a problem that deserves applying the tool left, let's go.

Speaker 5
Right, right. And, yeah, and if the, if the topic has come up, you know, kind of more than once, or we start getting into anything circular, you know, we both know that we can, we can move to that. And that we're not just going to spiral into that forever, we can do something about it.

Joli Hamilton
I love that

Speaker 5
I have, if I can share one more big one. projection and projection recall, was I felt like, we're just going to use a bad analogy. So I won't. I was projecting so much. And I just had no idea that that's what I was doing. And it took a lot of work. And I finally got there. And I noticed it in the moment. And then from that moment on, I started noticing it more and more. And then once I was able to realize that, and, you know, kind of feels like I confessed it to my partner. Like I could see the weight lift from her through the realization and I was just able to, you know, so much of this is just a big, big thing I learned is a lot of this is just on me. And that's that sucks to learn. Because it's so much easier if it's not your fault. No, that's it. That's your stuff, man. Go and do. I was like, oh, no, I have a lot of work to do here. And it's it's doubly insidious, because what I was projecting was my ability to be in a non monogamous relationship. And once I was able to see that and work through that I just like, so much of our conflict was kind of born out of that. And I still have a long way to go with it. But that was that. I don't know if you call that a tool, but yeah,

Joli Hamilton
totally that I definitely do. Yeah,

Ken Hamilton
it is. It's like a double edged sword. Or maybe I don't know, a double edged bandaid, because it does, it's like, Oh, this sucks. It's all on me. On the other hand, there's something I can do to change it. So there's this other side, wait for my partner, wait a minute, I actually have some influence over this. And I can make things better, right.

Speaker 5
And projection is just it. It's so rotten, because it's just taking all these things that are about me and that I need to work on. And then putting them on my partner, making them think that they're feel that they need to work on that. And so I'm not doing the work, I'm putting it on them and it's just this confusing, ugly, blaming mess and having that kind of drained away. Yeah, huge.

Joli Hamilton
I, I really appreciate you naming that. And I want to verify that using it as a tool. So we think they know that word projection, we use it casually, in you know, common language these days, just saying like, Oh, he's projecting they're projecting. But to think of it as a tool is to really empower yourself like oh, it's it's the projection is going to happen that's natural. It's a normal psychological process, a crappy one that we don't really love. But there it is, like it's for a reason. It's so you can see your unconscious material. But the tool is, I get to recollect it, I get to go do the recall on that, bring it back and reclaim what is mine. And that's the piece that that doesn't get talked about. And so we wind up in that cycle in our relationships that goes on and on and on. Often for Yeah, like a whole 50 year marriage and then and then we die. So way to go doing the work. Because

Ken Hamilton
it's the projection is the first step in a cycle. There's like this loop. And if you don't close the loop by recollecting the projection that the tool of like, okay, let me take the next step. But if you don't even know there's a step to take,

Joli Hamilton
you just keep it's just like, it's just bouncing back and forth on mirrors and back and forth. It

Speaker 5
helped me to visualize it. Like I'm just asking her to hold on to like stones. And so each thing is just like I'm putting another, you know, four pound rock in her backpack and she's gonna walk with an I'm four pounds lighter, even though it's my rock, and then there's realizing that's happened. And then recollecting like taking that back

Ken Hamilton
I love that. It's, it's

Joli Hamilton
a gift. And the thing is, it's what lets you get to know your actual partner, like, because up till, like we're projecting, we're not knowing our partner, we're knowing our projections on them. So the joy of finding out who that person really is, every time I take that rock back, and we have to keep doing it, because we'll just, you know, we that is the ongoing work relating, that's way to go.

Speaker 5
That's, that's a really good point in that that I'd forgotten to is because when you're doing that, you end up like, correcting your ways based on your own projection. So you're adjusting to what you actually need. And your partner's just, you know, kind of left there.

Ken Hamilton
Yeah, right. Yeah. It's it's very Salop cyst sort of thing. Yeah. I mean, Joey and I projected against each other for like, three years before we really started to undo it

Joli Hamilton
even know who he was. No, no. It's like just a mirror. And then we started

Ken Hamilton
working on it. And we didn't have like, it wasn't as clear as Joli has made it. But we worked our way through it. And it was like, Oh, there you are. Fascinated. Oh, you're not me, how am i He's,

Joli Hamilton
it's, it's nice to finally have a relationship with someone else. Right? Just a hall of mirrors.

Speaker 4
What I found really interesting is, you know, when we learned everything, there was so much material. And, you know, we we did it at a methodical pace. And, and so it was just a whole bunch of skills and everything, you know, so when I, we, you know, came out of that, you know, we had all these skills and, you know, well, now it's time to put them into practice, but didn't exactly know how that was going to be. Until, hey, you know, I been on a couple dates, and all the things come up that we learned about and I was like, ah, ha, that's what that's for it. You know, we you know, so we had an a great amount of dialogue. You know, I didn't know what that was. And now I do and now I know how to use it. It's a wonderful tool. And it really helped us the neuro somatic intelligence drills. Oh, my God, you know that that's, that's like magic work. It's a it's a shame. The one that works the best for me is the demon clock. So I developed this pocket around.

Joli Hamilton
I love that so much. I've never been happier in this moment right now.

Ken Hamilton
Around I love.

Speaker 4
So yeah, and starting to really see the value of the things that we learned when we're putting it into practice.

Joli Hamilton
So what about you? Yeah,

Speaker 3
I agree with all that. And the, the specific tool I want to tag because like, I have taken it, like you gave us the tip of the iceberg is the inner counsel. And right, so I have taken that and I'm studying ifs now and I'm looking at, like, so that's to me where this whole Know thyself, right. So in some of the stuff we've been going through recently, I'm like, holy cow. I have a part that wants revenge. I had no idea that like, people

Joli Hamilton
pleasing, Laura has a part that wants revenge. I love that for you.

Speaker 3
So right, like I was like, Okay, hello, revenge. I see you What are you here to teach me? Right. We had a whole conversation. So the the inner counsel and the work with the parts has just been priceless. Agreed.

Joli Hamilton
Yeah, I, I loved watching the two of you take to that individually. Because I if I remember correctly, and can remind me if you if you saw something else, please tell me. But I remember thinking that the two of you were, were pretty strongly enmeshed there was there was like, there was your Couplehood. And I could see that there was a desire to differentiate, but it wasn't happening. And then we got to the point where we did in our councils, which is just a way that I teach the basics of recognizing our multiplicity, right, and IFS internal Family Systems is a great way if anybody's listening is like, I need that right now. It's out there. You can go Google, it's no problem. But I watched you to like, see your yourselves differently and start expressing yourselves differently. It really seemed like it. It peeled apart some of the layers. So I could see you differentiated to which was beautiful, wonderful. I'm very curious as we wrap up if you If you weren't going back to that beginning time, when you were like, Should we do this? Should we bother? Like, is this worth? Because the thing is, it's mostly the time investment that I hear people being like, Ah, it's another thing to do in the midst of a busy life, what would you want to know, back then, if you could just go back and tell yourself

Speaker 4
if it's the time investment thing, it flies by the, you know, unit in, you get into this nice routine every week where you're, you know, so it, it. That's what I found, but yeah, I guess when you first start, like anything, even whole years, yeah. And it, it does fly by and, and, you know, the, the lessons we got out of it were just so valuable for us. And, you know, we didn't even know what we wanted to do. And, you know, and, and it's still working its way out. And, and, but but we have those skills in place. And we have the, you know, the resources in notion to go back and look things up, which I've done. And, yeah, it's a

Joli Hamilton
do it again. Awesome. Laura, what about you? Um,

Speaker 3
so, for me, it was just the late hour, it wasn't the time commitment, like I struggled a little bit with, I'm normally in bed at that time. So I wasn't, because I saw it as an investment in myself. And so for me, building that kind of time into my calendar, like is already a priority, and already something that I do on a regular basis. So it wasn't the time, it definitely wasn't the money, I felt like it was priced. Right. Very, very fairly, right. Because like I said, I know coaching work. And right

Joli Hamilton
now my goal has been to make it accessible, I want more people to have this in their garage,

Speaker 3
I want to say from my perspective, you have achieved that like that it feels accessible. I think that what I would tell that version of myself if I was whispering in her ear, like I would just say to her, you know, I know you don't really know where this is going. But trust me right like your you'll get to the end of this and feel like you've got more than your money's worth out of it that you know the value is going to be more than you can imagine.

Ken Hamilton
Oh, that is so worth listening to again. Just love hearing their voices. And thank you to everyone who participated in answered our questions and shared their stories. Yeah,

Joli Hamilton
and you're standing right where those folks were standing. Months and months ago, I want to encourage everyone right now go to year of opening.com. Grab your seat at my next free salon, book a call with me to talk to me directly. I enroll cohorts three times a year. There are four cohorts that enroll but three times a year. And so it's really important that you book your call now, even if the next cohort enrollment date is still a ways away, because you'll start getting support and being part of our community calls and our community chats as soon as you join. So get yourself call go to your opening.com We talk to you all the time, it is absolutely imperative to me that we get to hear from you as well. So we'd love to invite you to join us join Ken and I were holding monthly asked me any things you can show up. Bring your questions from podcast episodes from your relationships bring questions about non monogamy about individuation about relationship skills, we would love to share space with you. We're hosting these AMA's free of charge for our podcast listeners, you are the playing with fire community that matters a ton to us that we connect with you directly. So I

Ken Hamilton
would so love to hear your questions and Oh, they'll be so awesome.

Joli Hamilton
Yeah, go to Joli hamilton.com forward slash AMA and you'll find a way to sign up real quick, quick, and get an invitation to join us in a small group where we're gonna get together and talk about all things non monogamy, individuation and relationships.