Expansive Intimacy

~ 68 minutes ~

Burnout sucks, and it's everywhere. We talk with Jim Young, The Centered Coach, about his book Expansive Intimacy and about intimacy as the opposite of burnout. His book will be available this fall (2022).
Check out Jim's website at www.thecenteredcoach.com.

The following transcript was generated by AI, so enjoy the AI-flavored word choices and unconventional spellings of names,

Ken Hamilton
Hello, Joli.

Joli Hamilton
Okay. We're going to talk about expansive intimacy, which we've done before a lot, right. We talk about expanding intimacy. We talk about doing that by visiting sex toy shops, and we talk about it by having threesomes and we talk about it about open relationships in lots of ways. But this week, I think this is like a getting back to basics in some ways. But it's also profoundly important part of how we talk about intimacy, and talk about expansive intimacy with a guy who knows something about it. In a talk. We've talked with Jim Young. Yeah, so Jim Young, has recently written a book about expansive intimacy. And I can't wait for everybody to get a hold of this book. But I actually just can't wait for you to get a hold of this. Yes. Right. Because you and I talk about expanding intimacy, but we're often in that like, sexual sensual realm. Right. Jim is coming at this work from a completely different perspective. Yeah. Because Jim's a burn up out coach. So he's, he's talking about expansive intimacy. Yeah, really, in that in that friendship? And yeah, like what we think of as social platonic realm. Yeah.

It's good stuff. And I know that you have struggled with

Ken Hamilton
it, I do. I struggle with things in that realm. Quite a bit. And I am looking forward to getting that book out there, among the people who like me, struggle in that area. And there are a lot of male socialized people in particular, because part of that socialization is this isolation and independence, which is in opposition to the intimacy and linked to burnout. And so the conversation with Jim was wonderful, right? So

Joli Hamilton
we were gonna keep this really tight right now, because the conversation is juicy, and it's power packed. And I would say that if, if you have a person in your life, someone who you love, who was raised and socialized to be a man, I think this is the episode to pass to them. Yes, because what we're talking about, can open doors of vulnerability and availability. Way out past what is typically offered to us, but absolutely fits within a monogamous container. So you and I are all about the Yeah, relationship style agnosticism, it's not about that it's about deepening intimacy, in whatever ways feel right to you. And so I think this conversation is, in particular, a great invitation for all of us, and especially for those of you who were socialized to imagine that you weren't supposed to have feelings, or that your feelings were less important than other people's or certainly should be subservient to your thinking.

Ken Hamilton
All these things are there, they can be addressed. They can be responded to, from wherever you are right now.

Joli Hamilton
Right? So yeah, without further ado, I think we should get into this conversation.

Ken Hamilton
Jim Young is a men's burnout coach, as we mentioned, who discovered a unique antidote to the vexing dilemma of burnout, which I think we're all familiar with, to some extent, something he calls expansive intimacy. Jim's coaching work focuses on helping men discard old stereotypes and, and then take the risks to provide them access to the the intimate relationships that they crave across all areas of their lives.

Joli Hamilton
Okay, this is a good one, buckle in, and then pass this episode along. Everyone needs to be and get yourself a copy of Jim's book, it will be out in fall of 2022. Right. So get yourself a copy. I already pre read it. It's great. You're gonna want it on yourself. So let's have this conversation. So hi, Jim, it is so great to have you I feel like I've been gearing up for this conversation for like a year.

Ken Hamilton
So looking forward to this, right,

Joli Hamilton
because you've been writing a book,

Jim Young
I have been. And above and beyond that. It's just so fun. Whenever I get a chance to talk to either one of you. So that I get to talk to both of you at the same time is just it's blissful.

Joli Hamilton
Right at the same time. And through the magic of zoom. We get to have this conversation. And actually, I don't have to look at him right now. But I can still see him. This is very exciting for me. I'm, I'm really basking in the miracle of technology right now. If it weren't for my giant microphone, taking up the whole space, I'd be 100% satisfied by the experience.

Jim Young
I'm enjoying talking to all three of you already.

Joli Hamilton
Right. Exactly. Exactly.

Ken Hamilton
You have a microphone.

Joli Hamilton
So I think we should start right off, Jim, by talking about and establishing why you wrote your book tell us the tie. at all? Sure. And tell us why this book for you.

Jim Young
The title of the book is expansive intimacy, how tough guys defeat burnout. And it's a book that is largely as I think many books are my story. So certainly, this has a ton of personal resonance. But it also connects to a lot of the pain that I've been witnessing in the world as a coach working with men, just being in society, reflecting on my own past experiences in the corporate world. I went through a really long bout of burnout, I didn't know it at the time, I didn't know what to call it, that it took me years later to actually use those words for it or that word for it. And then it took me a while to recognize, oh, I'm not burned out anymore. And how the hell did that happen? And as I rewound that reel and looked at what were the steps along the way, I realized what I had done was create a bunch of intimate relationships across my life. And that by doing so, I made my life burnup proof, I still have all the stresses, I still have the worries and the fears. And they pass through so much faster. They don't build up because I have places to put them.

Joli Hamilton
Wow. Okay. So I think this is unique, because other than Emily and Amelia Nagasaki, I don't believe who wrote the wonderful book burnout, which is largely focused on a slightly more feminine experience of burnout. And you're focused a little bit more on a masculine experience, though. I think that the idea of that is, well, maybe one of the things we can talk about why it matters at all. But um, I don't think I've ever heard anyone talk about burnout related specifically to intimacy before hearing this from you. And I think even when I was hearing it from Emily, and Amelia, I was hearing it as part of a larger hole. And you seem to have really focused on intimacy as a really the, the solution to burnout. And so describe to us what is expansive intimacy? Exactly. Yeah, I've,

Jim Young
I've landed on it as the opposite of burnout. And just as a context piece, a lot of the work that I do is in corporate settings, and there's a famous burnout assessment called the Maslach burnout inventory that I use with clients, and they define the opposite of burnout as engagement. And I frankly think that's dangerous and bullshit, because engagement encourages us to like get fully into our work and be so into it. And not to diminish the researchers work. It's fabulous, but I quibble with that term. So in for me, we need something that's a non work alternative to burnout because so much of burnout comes from work, not all of it, but most of it. And expansive intimacy to me is that is this notion that I can have intimate connection in so many realms of life and you. Intimacy gets euphemized all the time. It's, it's about sexual. Yeah. Like you've heard this, I think

Joli Hamilton
that you using this word is one of the best doses of medicine our culture could get. Because I am so sick of people thinking, my work is all about sex. I love talking about sex. But really, I'm talking about intimacy, and connection. And

Jim Young
intimacy is about sex, right. It's like one of the most fabulous versions of intimacy. And it's a slice. And, you know, Ken and I had intimate experience in a men's group that we were part of for several months or a year, back in 2020. And like to be able to get on a call with a bunch of other men, and talk about, like, what comes up in us when we're dealing with things like white privilege. Like that is an intimate moment that I get to see that Ken has similar feelings that I do and similar worries. And he's confused in the same ways that I am and has these hopes and like, Now, I know, this other person, and especially I think it's critical for men to have intimacy with other men. Right. And we get into maybe we'll get into this as well, like homophobia is such a blocker to that in our culture,

Joli Hamilton
internalized homophobia, we should, we should touch on that and just I'm going to insert this notion of internalized homophobia is simply a homophobia that you are likely not aware that you have, but maybe we could even just back off from that and say irata phobia, just an afraid of freeness of just even being in connection intimate. An intimate phobia, right. Oh, yeah. specifically directed at that same sex connection.

Jim Young
Any and I think I love the notion Have irata phobia that you just mentioned, I'm not sure what that means, but I'm interpreting it on the fly and thinking that like, So, coming back to expansive intimacy, I want people to have intimate connection everywhere. And so if I come back to burnout as a workplace condition which the World Health Organization has, has deemed, it's a workplace phenomenon due to poorly managed stress, okay. And I will add, you know, that, yes, you can be a stay at home parent or an entrepreneur and have have burnout as well. But if I could have intimacy, and I have had this in the workplace with members of any sex, and not worry that by opening myself up, being vulnerable, creating these deep bonds, that I'm somehow inviting a sexual invitation. Now I have this the psychological safety to be able to share with anybody, like I'm really, I'm really up against it. Right now. I'm having like a crisis at home and I can't show up the way that I I'm being asked to show up. Can you help

Joli Hamilton
write that? So what I'm hearing you remember when we first learned about irata phobia? We were at a sexual avatar, yeah, reassessment a SAR. And it was the two of us went together. It was at the beginning of my formal training to be a sex educator. And it's simply a lot of phobias, simply fear of sexual and erotic material or ideas or connection. And the reason I think it's relevant here is because when we overlap sex and intimacy when we euphemized them, or or we conflate them, we then invite a Rata phobia which studies have shown almost all humans raised in this culture have to some degree, so Murata phobia. So now if you conflate that, now you're going to have some intimate phobia. I'm totally just making that up on the fly. And now we are missing what I hear you say, is a key piece of managing and even solving burnout. Because I mean, solving it's an ongoing solve, right? It's not, it's not like you solve it, and it's done.

Jim Young
So yeah, in fact that there's a critical point in there, and I have deprogrammed myself from talking about solving burnout or that there's a solution to burnout. No credit, like Drummond Pisa, an MD who's been doing burnout work for years in the health care industry, where burnout is so rampant. And he describes a critical labeling error, that burnout is not a problem, because if it were, we'd have a solution for it. Instead, it's a dilemma. And a dilemma requires a set of strategies that we can apply, flexibly, depending on what our situation is,

Joli Hamilton
just like jealousy, just like jealousy, jealousy can't be cured. It's not a problem. It has a purpose. It's not a problem. We have to have strategies. And instead, I love this framing. And I'm seeing how we could apply it so many places, when I've been talking and talking. So I know you have questions for Jim. So I'll first do

Ken Hamilton
I have questions and thoughts and the questions I had have been kind of driven out of my head by what we've been talking about. But so one of the things that I wanted to say is that you're linking in the title of tough guy and intimacy, ya know, as like, the the base, the assertion that that intimacy is how you be tough. It's like a piece of it. It's, and whatever tough means. And you could go down a whole bunch of, you know, roads there, but, but whatever it is, is based on who are you connected to? And I love that so much.

Jim Young
Yeah, I so wanted to flip the narrative, and especially putting a book out that, that talks about intimacy in this expansive way for men. All of the cultural conditioning that I've had is like, shut that shit down. And that's weak. Right? And, and what's what's tough for a guy is to go there to talk about vulnerability to talk about intimacy, to share our fears to share where we need help, like, that's tough, not the, I'm going to put the stiff upper lip on and say that I got it, I'm fine.

Joli Hamilton
Right? That's a tough.

Ken Hamilton
So one of the things that you know, so we've we've had a bunch of interactions in men's group work and shame comes up so often. And, and I feel like, what have you found is for a connection with shame and burnout in these places, what what's the role that shame plays? For men?

Jim Young
Such repression question Can because when I started writing the book, I knew I wanted to write about my burnout experience and how intimacy was what got me over it. And that's all I wanted to write about. And I was writing in my developmental editor one day asked me a question on one of the chapters that I had drafted and he asked me What was the role of stigma in this statistic that I had been playing with and I went and started looking okay as a research on stigma. And I ran into mental health stigma, research and things like that, which is highly correlated with burnout. And I was like, Oh, shit, now have to write about shame. And that means I have to look at my own shame. So to your question, what I've discovered, both in research and looking at my own situation and story talking to other men, about their experiences, is this. I'm still working on what there's a shape. There's like this, this like cyclic or cyclical shape or something. But essentially, shame is a factor, huge factor for men and getting into burnout. I need to live up to societal expectations of what it means to be a man. And so I need to be successful, I need to be strong, I need to not reveal emotions that I might be having to anyone, especially to another man. And, and that's just a really impossible set of conditions. I constantly have to succeed without having any weakness, right. So if I have weakness, now invited shame.

Ken Hamilton
So I hear you describing so we've said that burnout is sort of a problem. It's just a thing that requires strategies. And part of what makes those strategies work is the feedback we get about. How's things going for me? And I think I just heard you describe that shame interferes with that feedback. Because I might feel home. I'm tired, I should do some self care. And now shame comes up and says, No, you shouldn't. You should go try something. And man thing out in the world.

Jim Young
Yeah. Yeah. Suck it up. And I mean, sadly, yes, too often,

Joli Hamilton
that makes me want to ask both of you, though, what? Even just taking that first making that first inroad to I'm going to talk about? Before there's intimacy, I find there's often talking about intimacy. So it's like a meta cognitive level. How did you each decide to start talking about intimacy? Because I feel like that's the maybe we might have listeners who are like, putting this in front of the men in their life and saying, listen to this, what was your first weigh in? What was your path?

Jim Young
Yeah. I don't know that I realized, again, like similar to burnout. I didn't know I was in intimacy, the way that I was until later on, it got named for me after the fact, it actually got named for me by my partner on our very first date, we got lost in the woods for like four hours on our first date, which was epic and beautiful, and a whole other story for another day.

Joli Hamilton
Not creepy at all. No,

Jim Young
it was so good that it wasn't creepy. Like, she didn't creep me out at all.

Joli Hamilton
I'm glad. I'm glad you felt safe. That's right. I totally

Jim Young
felt safe with her. But we were having this, like really wonderful conversation. And we're walking, you know, trying to find a trail to get us back, we were still two hours away from actually to hopping in an Uber to get back to the parking lot. But she asked me this question that stopped me in my tracks. Literally, I stopped. I was like, what? And she said, Have you ever considered doing intimacy work with men? I was like me, do intimacy work with men. Who do you think you're talking to? Like, I don't know any of that. This is a year and a half ago. And I was like, oh, and she reflected some things that I had already shared with her. And we had been conversing for, you know, for some weeks or months before we actually met. And she shared with me this reflection that I had never seen before that I had actually been doing a lot of work with intimacy in a lot of different forums and formats and, and that I was embodying it. So it's really only been a year and a half that I realized it and one of the things I'll give a plug to where I've developed a lot of my trust in being able to be in intimate relationships is my, my work in my practice in improv comedy, which both are familiar with. And in that space, where I've been invited to play in low stakes settings with in a lot of different relationships that just emerge over time and realize, like when I show up authentically and real in those scenes, I'm practicing some really powerful interpersonal skills that have helped me build a lot of that intimacy in my life.

Joli Hamilton
Yeah. And, Ken, how did you find your way? Because I hear that and I think, right, you might not know you're in it. But once you do, you can then actually start leveraging like you can say, Oh, this is one of the ways this is how, but I'm curious what another path into intimacy has been

Ken Hamilton
So, I haven't thought about this question this way until right

Joli Hamilton
now my favorite kind of.

Ken Hamilton
And I think that throughout my life, I think music has actually been my performance of music was one of the things that kept the thread of intimacy going from when I was a child, because when I was a child, I was all over intimacy I was I was a little clingy guy looking for people all the time. And then it got socialized out of me. But in the meantime, I played trombone, play piano, saying, and in all of those, except for piano, which I don't do in public, or haven't, I put myself in a position of connecting to people through music. And that that thread, knowing that it was still possible later on, when I kind of surfaced a little bit from the socialization that said, just just be a rock that doesn't like an inert thing that barely even interacts with its environment. When I started to break out of that, I had that energy, that thread, so it was creativity, and sharing the creativity with other people. Storytelling, I would I would read to the kids, and I would make up stories for the kids knows things kept me connected to it. So that when, I mean, when did it start to flourish? was in my relationship with you?

Joli Hamilton
Well, it's funny that that's music was the way in our first right. He said he wanted to sing to me. And I was like,

Jim Young
wow, oh, K bolt, right. But

Joli Hamilton
then it took him like 10 minutes to start. He was just there, like, stuck and frozen. And I could see it like, it was as if it was like watching and melt, like, Okay, I'm gonna have to thaw some part of me to sing. And then he sang me that song in our wedding. Again, and it's, um,

Jim Young
yeah, goosebumps,

Joli Hamilton
right, that jives for me, though it was. So it's sharing some part of you. I don't think I recognized it at the time. And I think it could both of those instances could be interpreted as, as performative. But but you know, improv could be, but that doesn't have to be the experience. Right? Yeah, music could be performative. But it could also be intimacy and sharing and vulnerability.

Jim Young
You know, what I think is the what I heard, as you were telling that story, what I, I just underscored, as you were saying, the performative piece of that. Julie is when we are at heart in play, I think it opens up intimacy for us whether it's playing on an improv stage playing music playing with our kids. We're pure at that point. Yeah,

Joli Hamilton
right, right. And then it isn't performative. We are literally in it, we're present. And so someone might be witnessing, but they're not witnessing separate from, and that's what makes it intimacy. Yeah, if I'm watching you play with the children. And then I'm actually engaging even from my witnessing role. If I'm watching you play on stage, because I have, I get to witness and be in that I'm, I'm seeing this shape, like you describe this. There's a cyclical shape here to between between people when they are intimate, and sharing that way. Yeah.

Jim Young
Your spirit is free in that moment. And you know, it's the dance like nobody's watching. Concept, playing like nobody's watching. You know, I think of telling stories to my kids. I did puppet shows for my kids when they were little. And I was channeling I was I was, you know, in the flow, and it was intimate. It was just my being purely there and present. And there's nothing more intimate than that. Like, I'm totally discoverable. I'm totally connected. And I don't care what anybody thinks about me. I'm just being authentically myself. That's intimacy, too.

Joli Hamilton
So, Jim, you're talking about burnout, and you're talking about expansive intimacy. And I think, because our culture is largely having a conversation around burnout and work burnout in the workplace, specifically, people in large organizations often get a lot of chatter about burnout. And then so I work with people I work a lot with couples, who often are struggling with burnout, that they think is related to their work. But when I get them in a room, often what we notice is, in fact, they're burned out in their relationship. I don't usually call it that. But I would say it's the same symptoms of yeah, they're highly engaged engagement isn't the problem. The problem is that they're not seeing each other. They're not really with each other. And they're not really allowing themselves to on disarm and be together even when they're together. And so I'm just I'm thinking about the, what expansive intimacy is both between men, but also in these intimate moments in our homes. And no matter who you're partnered with, no matter who you live with what Do you share that day to day environment? What have you found? gets in the way of of this of it being this this medicine for burnout this application? What stops it from working?

Jim Young
The first thing that comes to mind? And it's not a question I've pondered a lot. But the first thing that comes to mind is, when we lose our curiosity, we stopped wondering, when I talk about expansive intimacy, one of the dimensions that I look at are all the different types of intimacy that we can have with somebody. So there's sexual, which we've already mentioned, there's physical intimacy, like, are we touching each other enough, in ways that we enjoyed we know which how we want to be touched? And how frequently are We are We participating in experiential intimacy, there's a guy that I coached last fall. And one of the things that I asked him early on was, he's, he's, he's married, he has a young child. And I asked him, I said, when's the last time you and your wife went out on the date? They said, Oh, it's been like, a couple of years, you know, so in it with work and with a young child, and I said, I'm gonna challenge you go out on a date, you know, schedule a date for the next, you know, next weekend, and he did and our next call, it was like, this new person, like, he was so energized. And he just remembered, like, Oh, we got to be out and just talk about what's going on in life and ask each other questions. And, and I saw some of that curiosity had returned for him and his wife and that experience and, and so taking that time to really inspect, like, how are we being intimate? And there's other forms of intellectual intimacy, where we're, you know, Star Wars versus Star Trek could be intellectual intimacy, right, like Deke out, like, how do you speak out together? But I think, curiosity and discoverability like, how do we allow ourselves to be discovered? Like, what are we interested in is, is a huge part of that.

Joli Hamilton
And if anybody wants a hack for curiosity date, you can go to listen to joli.com. And I have a four page handout they can grab to just go on and do it. The instructions are right there. And there are questions, you don't even have to think of questions, you can just ask them. It's great. I, it makes me remember this. This concept, though, is making me remember about physical intimacy. And I want to come back to the subject of How do men interact with men? Because boy, is there a lot of stigma and shame around touching each other if we're not going to have a sexual interaction? So let us let us go there.

Ken Hamilton
Let's do it.

Jim Young
I mean, is Yeah,

Joli Hamilton
men aren't allowed to touch each other. It's it's so from my perspective out here, it's tragic. And I struggle with my friendships and in lots of ways, but generally speaking, touching of other women, and femmes and non binary individuals, I have not. I have not experienced the pushback, but I witnessed from out here.

Ken Hamilton
So Jim, I have a question for you. And you don't have to answer it if you don't want to, but in, in your experience, in your life of touching other men, under whatever circumstances Do you feel any internal pressure? As though there's supposed to be a sexual element to what you're doing?

Jim Young
Wow, that's a great question. And yes, I would say like, if I if I touch you that way, it means something. Yeah. Means that I want to have some kind of sexual relation, whether it's intercourse or something short of that.

Ken Hamilton
Yeah. The only exception I can think of as a handshake, but even then, there are rules.

Joli Hamilton
Yeah, there's hands about how you do it. And how long how long is too long. How

Ken Hamilton
long is too long? Do you squeeze? How do you disengage? And it because all of it for me feels like there's like, in my like this, this lesson that comes in from the world as message that comes in to me from the world that says anything I do, should have a sexual component. I'm supposed to be this virile sexual creature, and that everything that I do should be sexual.

Jim Young
The HyperCard of our dominance. Yeah. Which I don't have. Me either.

Joli Hamilton
I am definitely carrying the dominance flag in this row. And that is definitely what's going on here. And that's, that's so interesting, because when I when I think about how both of you move in the world, I think of leadership. I think of leadership. I absolutely do because I've watched you both move in rooms. I'm like if they are the kind kind of guy who can stand on the front of a room, holler out, get everybody's attention and make sure the next thing happens. And that's what I think of when I think of leadership. But yeah, what there's, there are all sorts of things that I can do, I am free to do and free to interact. Because I am not hyper sexualized in that way. My touch is not like I can reach out and touch other people on the forearm or whatever. And it's, in fact, especially because I'm a mother of so many children. It's even more so I'm a mom, there's a there's a real remove nurture, right? There's a removable removable predatory thing. I can just take that right off. So wow, you guys are carrying around a lot. Yeah, well,

Jim Young
that's a huge that what you just mentioned is I've had, I've been in social or business interactions, and a woman has touched my arm. And that's totally okay. Would I ever do the same to them? Right, because I feel like now I'm going to step over a line that has been crossed by other men that have had, you know, the different intentions. And I just No, don't do it. You know, it's not safe. And that's, that's a shame because, you know, I so value touch. And back to your question, your part of your question, Ken, is, I'm a hugger. And like, I love to hug anybody. And that includes men, and I don't do libro hug, like, pat the shoulder, barely chest bump, like, I want the full, like, I want arms around and do a real hug. And that doesn't bother me at all like that. That's one area where I don't it's with people that I know. And I know that we can hug. Like I cherish that so much like have a real hug with another guy. That it's like, yeah, there's no like, this is just us, like enjoying the fact that we want to hug each other, nothing more. And everything about that, which is awesome.

Joli Hamilton
Wow, that's great. You have one place where that is true for you. Because you play judo. And they get their faces all up in each other's business. Like, all up

Ken Hamilton
and there's his hands everything, just

Joli Hamilton
like I mean, and yet, and yet nothing while I find it erotic to watch, that's my thing. The the experience of it when I watch you in and I'm like you're totally in yourself. And that looks just like what he's describing like you're just present. Yeah, I don't know what

Ken Hamilton
I'm doing. And why I'm doing your intention is clear, my attention is clear to myself. Container container makes it there's an agreement, you get an agreement. Yeah. Right.

Joli Hamilton
So how do we create more spaces where there is clear agreement, that touch is welcome and is not sexualized? Until we say so we like take that, take that piece out. So that touch can be?

Ken Hamilton
That is a great question. And I'd love to hear Jim's response. And first, I just want to say that everything every time I've heard touch in joy, and some other words, too, but those two I noticed it. It's like those two are like they're connected like an iceberg to this huge font of expected sexual energy. Like a touch is connected to sex. Just Hey, I enjoy something. I feel an erotic element to that. It's hard. It's like it's inaccurate for the world as it exists. But there it is inside me coming up. Here the words it's completely

Joli Hamilton
accurate to the original uses of the words, erotic and libido. They're their life force. They're much more closely related to lifeforce or what like in Chinese medicine, they talk about chi and that they that idea that we have in this particular zeitgeist, we have co opted it and made it all about, in particular, a certain way of acts of having sexual energy. That's pretty Yeah. Transactional and narrower and narrower. Yeah. And orgasm based rather than pleasure based even because, oh, I'm sorry. So I lost track of the question. First,

Ken Hamilton
I wanted to complain, apparently, but then the question was, I do too. How do we create the or we create spaces where that agreement that can contain and set the intention allows us to step past what we've been talking about the this added muck that's connected.

Jim Young
To me the starting point has to be honestly naming these things and having the maturity to stand there in the conversation be like yeah, this is true. Yeah, I have these thoughts and feelings and I know where they come from generally speaking, and intellectually, I know that it's fine for me to touch another man. But this is honestly what happens. And can, how can we now move past that? And acknowledge that, that we have a need? I've got a need. And I would like to talk about how that need can be met. In this space, how do we be safe about that? And, you know, what's, what's your need? Do we have you know, and certainly consent matters, in all the things that we do. But just brutal honesty is maybe not brutal, you have to be brutal. We honest,

Ken Hamilton
yeah, radically, get consent for stop being

Jim Young
afraid of these conversations, I think is the point in new for me, I've been afraid of so many conversations for so much of my life, that part of the writing this book is like saying like, Okay, I'm actually gonna finally plant a flag here that says, like, this is what I stand for. And as soon as I started doing that, you know, towards that, in the middle of last year, when I started this book project, I got really clear and really honest about who I was what I felt what I cared about what I could say, in public. And my life got easier. Full stop. Yeah,

Joli Hamilton
me too. I call you claim your your truth, your truth, and your intellect and your heart. And life aligns. There, I just came across a thought that I want to make sure we get in front of our listeners. When men create space to be intimate with other men, I think I've heard you say this before, it unburdens their romantic relationship from being the only source of intimacy

Jim Young
1,000%. And I'll give you a live example. Yes, on a call yesterday, with this group of men who I co created this group, year and a half ago, and we meet once a month, and I've only met one of these persons one time. Everybody else's scattered, there's six of us on the call. And we get together for 90 minutes, once a month. And we just talk about real stuff. And yesterday, I was talking about really difficult challenges that I've been going through with my mother and my sister around my mother's living situation. And I had the space where I could name so much of what was going on. And I didn't even realize going into this conversation like what was going on. Somebody mentioned Mother's Day, and like, it just dropped in for me. I was like, oh shit, I'm dealing with so much grief, and so much anger. And all these things that I don't want to deal with that would be normally sitting under the surface. And I got to bring them out into the open with this, these other five guys. And they held that space for me so beautifully and shared and asked me questions and cared for me in ways that I totally needed. And I get to my partner's house last night she's recovering from COVID is normally somebody that I absolutely would talk to about this, but she didn't probably need that. And I could tell her had this amazing call where I got to process all this stuff. I don't need your energy for this right now. And we could instead focus on the care she needed. Yeah, I

Joli Hamilton
would give you a standing ovation. And if I weren't in this cramped space,

Jim Young
I would give those men a standing ovation every time I meet with them, because it's just that one of the biggest blessings I have in my life is to have that group of men where we can go everywhere.

Joli Hamilton
Okay, so I am here for action steps. And what I heard is here is an actionable idea that any one any person, but let's let's really be clear here. And Chris, if you identify as a man, this is the thing that could be in your life. Because Jim you instigated this group, right? This was just an idea. Yeah. So 18 months ago, or 19 months ago, this was an idea. And it went from idea to reality, because you did what how? How did you take this action step? What did it look like?

Jim Young
We co created so I didn't need to lead or be the guy who figured it out, which is a roll that I'm really good at. And I instead, I knew one of these people, one and a half of these people. And we just said, Hey, we're interested in the same kinds of conversations. And let's invite other like minded guys into this conversation and we'll just see what happens. And over time, we've had structured agendas where we've used a process called the case clinic by a guy named Otto Scharmer. to process things and really give somebody focus, and then we've just become organic, but we just connected people that we knew and it was, you know, originally eight people now we're six and we You just get together and we talk. And we have, we don't even have like, I've been involved in a lot of groups and like setting agreements, and you know, defining, we did a little bit of that upfront. But it's so clear that we're just there to show up and be real, and not pull any punches, and support each other, celebrate each other, whatever is needed.

Joli Hamilton
So you could have minimal agreement setting, I'm thinking like you, Koch, were co creating this could be one, assume goodwill, when someone's speaking, just just assume they're coming from the best place they can in that moment. Take care of your your needs, and boundaries.

Jim Young
We don't offer advice. Right. Yeah, it's been really

Joli Hamilton
important. No offering advice, you

Jim Young
know, and obviously, confidentiality, you know, those are, that's a great framework to be able to get into a space with people who want to explore the things that you're interested in, or in a lot of cases, like, people are exploring stuff that I haven't thought about, which is great, because now we get to learn from people who have big hearts and souls and minds.

Joli Hamilton
And some of it we're only going to learn once we're going through it. You know, you watch somebody go through the loss of a parent and you learn you pregame. Oh, oh, it could be like that. And here's how we can show up for each other. With full intimacy. I'm

Ken Hamilton
my mind's blown. I've been to a few different men's group, including the one that I did with you, Jim. And what when you first described this, when you first told the story of going there, and just that just you just say what's going on? I'm I've, I've gone because I thought I was supposed to, because it seemed like a good idea to try to connect to people and try to get, you know, work through my stuff. And I made, you know, progress and stuff. That is the first time I felt my body light up. Like, that sounds great. And I think it was the clear simplicity of what you just described, of people standing or you know, connected, and giving each other space to say all the things. And then I heard you

Jim Young
enjoy each other. Wow, bring that word

Joli Hamilton
back. Oh, great. Now he's gonna tear up.

Ken Hamilton
And then, and then I heard you describe one of the that you turned something that with your partner could have been burdensome, instead of sharing a burden, you you could share a celebration that you that you have this experience that was so valuable to you, and instead of coming to them with, who have helped me hold this up, you were like, This was awesome to share this with the guy that sounds great.

Jim Young
It was really, and I know how much she appreciated it. I texted her in the middle of the afternoon, I said, Hey, I had my, you know, my men's group call. And she she knew exactly what that meant. And she was just so excited for me. And there's an article I read probably three or four years ago, I think it was in Harper's Bazaar. And it talked about emotional gold digging. And how, you know, we talk about gold diggers and label that, as you know, for female identifying people like who were just out there about for the money from from a man. Well, the flip side, in, you know, heteronormative kind of traditional terms is men who only go to their, their wife, their their partner, their spouse for their emotional support needs, and how unsustainable that is for the relationship for the woman for the man for everybody. And

Joli Hamilton
limiting. Limiting one point of view, it creates a closed circuit. And there is no fuel for the fire. It's I mean, and if you look towards Esther Perez work and think about the novelty versus stability paradox, right? We think about novelty, it's not just about who do you want to fuck it's about who do you want to share yourself with so that you can bring some of that oxygen back? Yeah, there's so have

Jim Young
all these. And this is really what expansive intimacy is about for me is that I have all of these outlets, whether that's my men's group, whether that's my partner, whether that's my ex wife, frankly, I have an intimate relationship still with her that's entirely appropriate for the phase of what our relationship is today. My improv teammates, who are wonderful friends, other I just have all of these places with all these TierPoint can like different perspectives. I have I have all these different sources of oxygen, when I need to breathe through something, and somebody can tell me something differently, you know, an aid, you know, they're, they're going to be times where I'm having a challenge with my partner. And if I only have one place to go to, and talk to my partner, well, what do I do when I have an issue with my partner? Cool, and I've got my friends to talk to these other men especially because for years, really for up until about 10 years ago, I had zero intimate kind actions with men in my life, I was so afraid of opening myself up to another man, it had never been modeled for me. I didn't know how to do it. And having access to that has been an absolute game changer for me.

Ken Hamilton
So I have to say that I can't even imagine how the game might have changed for you. Because I'm just starting to imagine what it is to have the experience of being in the group like, like you just described. I hear people talk about men's work and the connection among men. And I generally, I can't imagine it, I don't know what it what what that means. So I think for me,

Joli Hamilton
too, yeah, I've watched you it's, it's, um, so I'm guessing that people listening might have a similar experience. So what I see the image that comes to mind is, you have repeatedly reached out and sort of come up. And it's as if you're trying to go up a steep hill, and you come up and and you get to so far, and then it rolls back down into the not just the habitual, though it is that but also like, oh, that didn't really catch it didn't work. And then you roll back down. And now you're, you're also a little demoralized, from that didn't work, what if I can't. And so now at 55, you've had a bunch of those runs, and you haven't yet gotten to a spot where you really feel like you are fully seen and accepted. And I think it's courageous to just name that because here we talk about intimacy, all the time. But it is, it is absolutely true in our household that I provide a lot of the external, I pull that in, and you have struggled with it over and over again. So regardless of how much we we try there, like it can be really, really hard. It can be really challenging. So I'm hearing though, that you at some point took ownership of this, and I'm guessing, but correct me if I'm wrong, it wasn't to solve the burnout. I'm hearing that you later realized that you had not solved I want let's move away from that word. It's not that it had addressed it. If you hadn't strategize and said, I'm gonna go make intimate relationships to to get this burnout under control. Right? Instead, you were doing the intimacy, and then realize that it was helping the burnout. And you're a busy man, can you have I keep I keep his life. He's juggling chainsaws, all the time, seven kids, a business of mine, that he's now for every part of this. That's a lot. And so what would your advice be? To someone who has taken a run in intimacy with men but has not found their home yet?

Jim Young
What would you tell them? For some reason, the life purpose statement, the four word life purpose statement that dropped into my head, when I was doing some coaching work, with my coach years ago, comes to mind and it's slow down and connect those words, when I first heard those, it was like, Well, you know, I couldn't understand like, why would that be the purpose of my life, and I just trusted them. And over time, I've keep having those words come back to me, like they just did. And to recognize that, you know, maybe the metaphor of the juggling chainsaws came up, brought that up, because I've lived that life as well, like I, I will stay so busy. And there's a badge of honor, in that, I think for all of us, for men, maybe a slightly different way of activity culture. Yeah, be the provider, be the protector be the, you know, be the one who's achieving all the time. That's, that's a huge part of my story. And the, I'm gonna use air quotes, your indulgence, to connect with other things that are going to slow myself down to see how I feel to to connect with another person in a really meaningful way. It's counterintuitive. It's countercultural, even, I think, from my experience, and that to me, like that simple phrase, has been a lifeline for me at times and to realize that, like, if I just get off the hamster wheel for a second and look at like, what am I doing? And what do I actually want to be experiencing instead? And invariably, it comes down to I want to be connected. I want to be connected to source or spirit. And that's internal work a lot of times, sometimes it's nature, but oftentimes, it's people. I want to I want to be with people in a way that's meaningful. I want to know what's going on with my kids and their struggles and their joys I want to, you know, have deep friendships. And I don't know if that answers that question, but that was the inspiration that struck Yeah, okay, good.

Joli Hamilton
I like it because it also is a reminder that one of the places where each of us has more intimacy in our life is our are our children. They are burgeoning adults. Yeah, right. And yours I know you're at this phase to where as our children transition out of their child state into their adult state. There's a lot of being close and intimate and being all up in their lives and letting go the practices of both. And I wonder if that's part of what it can feel like there's a lot of intimacy, and there is, but it's not necessarily diverse. It's not necessarily outside of the household. And so expansive, it's not expanding. Right, right. So there's the challenge. But that's

Jim Young
it like, like, start somewhere like we all know, intimacy in some way. So like, what's great about intimacy? And how do you show up in the space that you are able to already create intimacy? And then what can you do? Because then now there's a risk. That's the other? Excuse me thought that was in my mind, wouldn't you ask that last question is, it's been about taking risk for me, and putting myself into new situations where I'm going to be uncomfortable, where I have to reveal something that people don't know about me yet that I'm probably protecting or hiding. And this is where shame comes back in. You asked the question earlier, like how to shame relate to burnout, it gets us into it keeps us in burnout, because I can't, I can't say that I'm burned out every week. And so I just stay in it, I'll keep doing it. But it's also the front door to intimacy. When I can reveal my shame, when I can talk about the things that feel hard or broken or scary, or whatever it is, that feels shameful to me. I have taken a big risk. And whenever I've done that, I've created an intimacy because somebody has been able to see me for who I really am. And there's a part of them that connects with it. They see it like it's a different story. But the details aren't important. They're like, Oh, yeah, me too. I've been there. I worry about that, too. And now we have a bond that's never going to be broken because we know each other,

Joli Hamilton
right? Knowing, knowing I say all the time that being to be seen is to be loved. And that's that's what I'm hearing that. And this expansiveness, I can start anywhere. So you have started, you started with nature. That was your place, disbanding. Yeah. And yet, I mean, I feel the clarity, tennis so often on this podcast. I know you've listened to some episodes, Jim. He is so often learning on the fly, but also being vulnerable and sharing like, Oh, yep, we're still working on that. And I'm really grateful that you would be present to how hard this is for you right now, here.

Ken Hamilton
i The the vulnerability of saying so this is how things go for me that that's a problem problem. That's, that's an experience that I have integrated into my life in a way that's like, okay, yep, I'm gonna be vulnerable. I'm gonna take this risk. What blocks me what like that what you described, you're rolling up the hill and rolling back is followed through? I don't know what, like, it's probably all connected. But yeah, I'll, I'll share, and then I'll, I'll have a relationship, and then I'll just sort of drop it. And I won't put the energy in to maintain the connection. I'll create a connection, but I will maintain it. That's the thing. That's just the that's what tripped me up. That's where I fall down.

Jim Young
Yeah, one of the other things that makes me think of Ken is that this notion of expansive intimacy could seem overwhelming, like, oh my god, I now have to have 20 people that I maintain intimate connections with and that's not suitable for certain people. And expansive intimacy could be three people in your

Ken Hamilton
life, right? And it could be some black and white thinking on my part to have, okay, if I'm going to have this relationship, it's going to be as significant and as energetically it's going to require as much energy as the relationship I have with Joey,

Joli Hamilton
nothing will take that much work and I'm proud of it. I love being high maintenance, and

Ken Hamilton
I love the relationship and if if that's what someone else is looking for in a connection, I don't have to have those. And then so I don't Yeah, there's there's more to dig into there.

Joli Hamilton
Well, there is that's an interesting one because I do like I have had multiple this level relationship works. The

Ken Hamilton
other thing is, I tell myself, I don't do I think I had this for you. So here it is. So it's funny.

Jim Young
Each relationship gets to be different.

Ken Hamilton
And it will it will be absolutely different. Yeah. Yeah. I haven't smooth imagination problems. I think around what

Joli Hamilton
don't we all what Majan ation? Imagine something new and then just make it happen. be fine.

Jim Young
Yeah, fuck it up. Have a good time.

Joli Hamilton
Suck it up in the air. In the great Fuckit pan Victor's rallying call for a civil war, I learned that Yeah, exactly. You know, I am so grateful that we had this conversation both on a professional level, but also on a personal level. This is an issue that comes up in our house over and over again. And burnout hasn't manifested in a traditional way in a long time in our house, because we have such creative lives. But I think now I'm actually seeing the flip, like where there's a lack of intimacy, I can actually lose, like, use that as one of the canaries in the mine for Oh, is there actually hidden burnout? Is there this sense of, of lack, or, or just a crispness? Fried this? Because I might not be able to identify it. Otherwise, I you know, when we're not working in a traditionally corporate environment, maybe I don't recognize it. But now Oh, if there's lack of intimacy, I should probably do a little check. I should probably do an assessment. Am I in burnout? And I'm not seeing it?

Jim Young
Yeah, I'd love that I have. This is new for me to think of that as a reverse diagnostic. Yeah. To say like, Oh, can I kind of look at where's my intimacy waning? And is that putting me at risk to get into some state of burnout?

Joli Hamilton
Yeah, that's great. I mean, it's, it's the I'm thinking about the, you said that expansive intimacy is burnouts opposite. And two things don't have to be mutually exclusive to be opposites. So you, it's not that you necessarily, but it seems like a good a good check in, like, especially if someone is just in denial, because I can imagine denying the idea that you need intimacy. But I can also imagine denying burnout, right, like and getting stuck in the idea that no, that's a thing that happens to other guys, doesn't happen to me, that's that

Jim Young
shame thing that sits in the middle of both of those two, you know, if I'm in my shame, I'm not going to acknowledge either one of those, I'm not going to acknowledge the need for intimacy or the presence of burnout. And so that's why shame when it popped up in the research and the work that I was doing, it's like, oh, I have to have to have to write about this because it is, I think, the what creates the double bind,

Joli Hamilton
right? And that's always a problem. I think this has been incredibly powerful. And Jim, you have a book coming out very soon. Tell everybody about the book. And then after that, we'll talk about where people can find you. But tell them what they can expect from the book.

Jim Young
Yeah, the book is called expansive intimacy. How tough guys defeat burnout. It'll be out in late September this year. That's my first book. It's been a joy to write I've really loved the process. It's there's a lot of storytelling in there my stories as well as other stories. Perhaps even one of you show up in the book, quick teaser there. Thank you for your your participation in that. And a lot of research is well, because there's a lot of good science around these topics, whether it's shame, whether it's intimacy, whether it's burnout. And I hope it's really relatable and enjoyable. Some of the initial feedback I've gotten is that it's it's pretty, pretty good stuff to read. I hope. So.

Joli Hamilton
I've read some clips, I've read some some clips out of it. And I think that you not only have put the research into it, which I really appreciate so much, because you're not just taking a here's how I saw burnout, you went to the books, you went to the bigger picture. And that is, to my mind, just a wonderful way to approach a topic. But um, but also, it's just an enjoyable read, every clip that I've read, I'm like, oh, yeah, this is engaging. So whenever

Jim Young
my goals is to, is to hit this really big set of topics, and also bring in the element of me that that stems off one of my life values, which is create as much fun as possible. How can we actually have fun talking about this? And not that everything is going to be light and humorous, but there's going to be pieces in there that I hope get people like oh, yeah, like I can laugh at myself, or Wow, that's a big situation. And I can look at that differently. Well, you born normalize this stuff

Joli Hamilton
you definitely made can laugh at himself. In the description you wrote of him. I am so glad I video I

Jim Young
appreciated that video. So much.

Joli Hamilton
Jim, you are also a year of burnout coach for men specifically. But I'm guessing that as you as you deepen this practice of expansive intimacy, people are going to figure out that they need you. So how do they find you?

Jim Young
Yeah, they can find me most easily the centered coach.com. That's my home online. It's really the only place you need to go. I don't want to give you a big list.

Joli Hamilton
Perfect. That's perfect. So go to the centered coach.com. I'll put that in the show notes. And you can always reach out to me as well and I will connect you with Jim if you are a regular listener. I have this wonderful connection to my listeners and If one of you is thinking, this is the episode to put in front of my husband, just do it. Just do it. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200 Until you have gotten this in front of them. Because I am so grateful for this conversation. Thank you for having it with us.

Jim Young
Thank you so much for for being here with me today and just letting me be on the show. I just adore both of you. It's so fun to get a chance to talk to you both at the same time and and explore this. All these topics.

Ken Hamilton
Thanks Jim has so much fun talking with you as always. 

Jim Young
Yeah, good to see you too. Ken.