Evolving Love: Insights from Abbey and Liam

3 minute read

Are you curious about non-monogamy but unsure how to navigate its complexities? Ken and I recently had the pleasure of speaking with Abbey and Liam from The Evolving Love Project and their journey offers valuable insights for anyone considering or already practicing non-monogamy!

The Power of Gradual Openness

One of the most striking aspects of Abbey and Liam's story is their gradual approach to opening up their relationship. They didn't rush into non-monogamy but took small steps, allowing themselves time to adjust and grow. This approach can be particularly helpful for those feeling overwhelmed by the prospect of sudden change.

Embracing Possibility and Aliveness

For Abbey and Liam, non-monogamy isn't just about having multiple partners. It's about embracing the possibilities that open relationships offer. Liam beautifully describes it as a sense of aliveness that comes from knowing there are doors that could potentially be walked through. This perspective can help shift our focus from fear to excitement about the potential for growth and new experiences.

Navigating Non-Monogamy as Parents

One common concern for those considering non-monogamy is how it might affect their children. Abbey and Liam's experience shows that it's possible to balance non-monogamous relationships with responsible parenting. They prioritize their son's well-being while also modeling happy, respectful relationships. Their approach involves age-appropriate honesty and a focus on demonstrating love and connection.

Dealing with Jealousy in Non-Monogamous Relationships

Jealousy is a natural emotion that can arise in any relationship, including non-monogamous ones. Abbey and Liam's experiences show that jealousy can manifest in unexpected ways. For instance, Liam found himself more worried of Abbey potentially riding on a date's motorcycle than of any sexual encounters. This highlights the importance of identifying and communicating our specific triggers and boundaries. 

The Role of Humor and Lightness

One of the most refreshing aspects of Abbey and Liam's approach is their use of humor and lightness in navigating challenging situations. They demonstrate how maintaining a sense of playfulness can help diffuse tension and create space for growth and compromise.

Communication: The Cornerstone of Successful Non-Monogamy

Throughout their story, Abbey and Liam emphasize the crucial role of open, honest communication. They've cultivated an environment where no topic is off-limits, allowing them to address concerns and desires openly. This level of communication has not only strengthened their relationship but also made everyday challenges seem less daunting.

Embracing Personal Growth Through Non-Monogamy

Abbey and Liam's journey illustrates how non-monogamy can be a powerful catalyst for personal growth. By challenging societal norms and their own preconceptions, they've developed greater self-awareness and stronger communication skills. Their experience shows that non-monogamy can be a path to deeper understanding of oneself and one's partners.

Building Confidence in Non-Monogamous Choices

For those struggling with confidence in their non-monogamous choices, Abbey and Liam's story offers reassurance. They demonstrate that it's possible to navigate non-monogamy while maintaining a strong primary partnership and family life. Their journey emphasizes the importance of self-reflection, clear communication, and mutual respect in building confidence in one's choices.

Abbey and Liam's experiences highlight that non-monogamy is a journey of continuous learning and growth. It's not about adhering to a specific set of rules but about creating relationships that align with your values and desires. Their story encourages us to approach non-monogamy with openness, honesty, and a willingness to evolve.

If you're intrigued by Abbey and Liam's insights, I encourage you to explore their podcast, The Evolving Love Project, and Abbey's writings on their Substack. Remember, every non-monogamous journey is unique, and the key is finding what works best for you and your partners.

Episode 161 Transcript

This transcript was auto-generated, and may contain some errors.

Joli Hamilton
Welcome to play with fire the podcast for people who are ready to custom build their love.

Ken Hamilton
We're talking about non monogamy however you design it as an individuation opportunity.

Joli Hamilton
Want to leave the default and make your life spectacularly you? You're in the right place

can we have some great guests on today?

Ken Hamilton
Yes, we

Joli Hamilton
do. We have a conversation with Abby and em. And this was for me. I've already had a conversation with Abby and Leon. I was on their podcast, evolving love Project A while ago, and the conversation was so good. I was so into it. I love they're down to earth nature. They're really practical approach to hey, we're building this love and this relationship that works for us. And we're interested in talking about that with other people I've been. They just have a really pragmatic but gentle and open perspective. It's so lovely.

Ken Hamilton
It was a very natural conversation with them. We were just talking. Yeah, really good. And

Joli Hamilton
Abby and Liam also have, they have a beautiful approach to flexibility in in, like, how their openness has developed over the years, and how coming out and being more present and forward facing and the non monogamous world has played out for them. So really interesting and fun. They're also parents to a young child. So they've got some interesting perspectives on that. And we had a great conversation about motorbikes. And I think everybody is just going to want to. So would you let everybody know exactly where Abby and Liam are coming from?

Ken Hamilton
Me and Liam are the founders of the evolving love project. Together, they create conversations and awareness about the multiplicity of ways people can build conscious relationships. They encourage people to explore alternatives to the status quo, on their podcast and at their in person events. In Australia,

Joli Hamilton
which you know what if I'm going to, I'm going to see Abby and Leah. Okay, great episode, can't wait for everybody to dive in.

Ken Hamilton
Hello, here we are.

Joli Hamilton
Abby. And Liam, thank you so very much for joining us on playing with fire. Since I have had the pleasure to talk with you before, I already know this is going to be a fire conversation. But thank you for taking the time and getting up early to come join us really

Ken Hamilton
appreciate you putting the time in. So

Liam
at least we could do. We're excited to have this conversation. We've had it in the calendar for a while and we've been looking forward to it a lot. And it's great to finally meet you as well. coincides. This is great, great excuse to get up early.

Abbey
Yeah. Thank you both so much.

Joli Hamilton
Well, you know, let's just start right off, would you you just describe to us what's going on in your life, the evolving love project is like, it's beautiful. It's amazing. Catch our listeners up with who you are, and what's going on for you.

Abbey
Oh, thank you so much. So the evolving love project I started when we moved back from New York City at the end of 2019. Or maybe it was 2020. And we were we were coming out to our friends and family slowly as being non monogamous. And I started this little tiny private Instagram page just for some friends of mine to share about non monogamous concepts conversion, just to sort of like own the narrative a little bit because, you know, as I'm sure you guys know, you know, non monogamy is high gossip stuff as well. So I would say Yeah, it's really juicy. So it's like, I'm gonna I'm just going to share a little bit about these, you know, some of the misconceptions and a little bit more about Liam and I, because we were that monogamous, presenting couple, you know, parents sort of like the, the perfect, monogamous couple. So I started sharing through this Instagram page. And then after a little while, I had friends saying, Look, this is really interesting. And I actually have a friend and I'd love to share it with her, or, you know, this, this couple that I know, they'd love to read your writing. And so it sort of grew and grew, and it was still a private Instagram page. And then I, I opened it up, and I evolved into the evolving love project for to be more inclusive and to be open to any person who would be interested in their story. And then yeah, and then not long after that, I started writing longer on a substack evolving love project, and then started some in person conversation evenings, which has been really wonderful. So that's just in our hometown in Canberra. Just a beautiful opportunity to bring other people together. You know, Liam and I are not sort of educators in this space, but we are, you know, we do love, you know, holding space for these types of conversations and just, you know, the opportunity to meet other people and share stories in a non judgmental environment was really important to us. And then I

Ken Hamilton
think that's so important holding, creating a space and allowing people to come together, it's so important to be able to be around people who would just like Yeah, listen, non judgmentally and just interact. That's, that's great. Yeah.

Liam
And what we found as well is with those with those conversations and having these conversations, we also, as Abby was saying that we love having these kind of deep conversations about relationships, sexuality. And then so that kind of led into us starting a podcast as well, which is why we had the wonderful jolly on as well, which is a lot of fun. But, see, so we've had the podcast now for almost two years. And recently we've been, as we were talking about before, and the pre roll, we were, we're now releasing every week, but we've had some fantastic guests, we had Chris Ryan on recently, which has been amazing, we had Molly Right and winter, and, and so we just love jumping in and discussing all things relationships, just like you guys do. And yeah, just really traversing some kind of interesting territories.

Joli Hamilton
And I have loved listening to your episodes, I think actually, because you approach this from a person first, you have your experience in the non monogamous experience, like you're not coming in and saying top down, this is how we have to do things you are entering in as a peer as someone who's bumbled through some of it. And also, like, really had some stellar experiences. I mean, there are some sad, right lighting writing is, it'll, if you're looking to get your engine going, read some of what he's been writing. It's amazing to hear your stories, and to see how much growth you've experienced over your own journey. And I just appreciate that because a lot of people are not out there not sharing their stories, and I understand and respect why. But the more of us who can risk that, you know, the coming out of the non monogamous closet, as it were? And saying, Yeah, this is what I'm doing. This is what my experience is. So I'm curious, how is it going for you each and this might be different even to be out in the world to have a public face around this?

Abbey
I would say that there, there have been so many stretches of vulnerability with this for us, but everything has sort of happened. So slowly, like it's just been this very gradual coming out process. And, you know, people will say to us now Oh, wow, you guys are so out there. But it doesn't really feel that way for us. Because it's been sort of these these stepping stones. I would say, you know, some of the big things that were very big heartbeat moments were, you know, coming out to family, we had come out to my parents, you know, six years ago, so they've known for a long time and, uh, fully supportive and, you know, love us very dearly. And we're sort of, you know, curious, had that initial sort of, like, Well, I hope that you guys are okay, because, you know, we love you and we want you to be together and happy. And so once we moved through that, you know, that was fine. And then yeah, I think it was when we started the podcast, we were just about to start the podcast Lee

Liam
and that was the moment we came out to my family because I was like, ah, though, people are definitely gonna find out now, you know, talking about he's gonna, somebody's gonna get clued in and now it's gonna get sent around, you know, like our local town of Canberra, which is, which is the capital of Australia, but it's it's only half a million people. So it feels like everyone knows everyone. So as soon as someone gets gets a hold on, like, Oh, they've got a podcast. I know, my dad's gonna going to hear about it. So So yeah, so we came out to my parents, and they were wonderful. And of course, they had questions, which were great questions, and sometimes uncomfortable. You know, because at that point, we, we did have our son, because we're parents. But you know, we gave them the grace to ask those kinds of uncomfortable questions. So all of that kind of trained us going back to your question, Joey, all of that kind of trained us for having living in this a little bit more of a space of vulnerability. That was really gradual. It wasn't this, like, Hey, we're not monogamous. Now. We're on TV. Now. We're doing podcasts, all these all these types of things. It was it was kind of for us, it felt really comfortable to just kind of do it very gradually. So where we're at at the moment, is that we've got a bit more of a profile now, which has been interesting, because it's meant that certainly for Abby, I think, you know, it does impact on the dating a little bit. We've had to wrestle, doesn't

Joli Hamilton
it? It does have an impact on the dating world. Rachel Wright was on our show and said the same thing. This like, sometimes people think they know us, even though you have never met them before. And what about you, Liam has it impacted your experience?

Liam
I'm hoping it does impact in a positive way at some point. Waiting for those those those groupies that Avi seem to have.

Joli Hamilton
Where are they okay?

Liam
No, I think well, I mean, maybe I didn't really think about it when I'm going into it like a first date. I think often, guys when Abby's and Abby can speak to this, but but I always had situations where guys have been like, I've listened to every single podcast episode. And now we're on a date together. And then Abby goes, Oh, wow, that asymmetry is a lot to handle. But I usually date people that we have known previously, or that we kind of develop a connection with. And I do it separately. And occasionally, Abby and I, when the stars align and our calendars permit, we might go on a date together, but

Abbey
like, with other people with other people, yeah. So,

Liam
so yeah, it hasn't, it hasn't really come up as being a problem or a good thing yet.

Abbey
And we also tend to when we start, you know, when we're seeing someone will, we'll stay in touch for a really long time. So we're actually in touch with people who we knew and cared for, you know, from way before we started involving love projects, even people, you know, that we knew from when we were living in New York City, we were there for six years. So we had quite a community of people over there. So yeah,

Joli Hamilton
I, the reason I think this is such a, an interesting piece of the puzzle is when people are are transitioning from monogamy to non monogamy, which is often where they come in and like into my world is there. I think there's this image that being open and being out will look like overwhelming. I think you're onto something it is it's a step by step process. And most people, either they want the juicy gossip, or they're not going to care at all. It's like it's kind of minimal. But so I think people jumped to a conclusion that it will feel really shocking. But in fact, my experience was, most people just want to know, like, what's the titillating tidbit that and then they and then they sort of move on to something else? And that you don't you actually get to control the narrative. If you come out in your own way, you get to actually participate in making sure that people understand why you're doing this what, what your reason wasn't, that makes me ask because I don't think I have heard this directly from you. What is your current reason for being non monogamous? Like, there's the reason why we make the shift originally, but what about right now for each of you? What has you inspired in non monogamy?

Abbey
I would say that it's pretty similar to how it was when it first started out. Like for Liam and I, it's always been this incredibly playful, exciting, sort of, like erotic thing, we're very compulsive, we really sort of enjoy the entire experience of non monogamy like, if I'm dating or I connect with somebody, like, Liam gets incredibly excited about it, it's sort of like, it really has always opt out, or an experience together, which is or which has always been, you know, a very connected relationship, but it's just like, very playful and enjoyable for us. But it is something that we do, you know, think back to it different times. Because of course, along the years, there have been times of difficulty there have been things that we've had to wade through and as the relationship sort of, you know, has changed from going from more sort of sexual based non monogamy then opening up into more polyamorous dynamics at different points. You know, of course, that has had strain and we've had you know, we've we have had our difficulties, but I would say that it does come back to that sense of joy and aliveness for us, and just we're pretty playful, very cheeky people. So it kind of fits. And I

Liam
mean, even at the moment, I didn't, I didn't have a, like a partner have come at partners, who are, you know, dotted around the world. But it's, it's a fascinating thing for me because I feel very non monogamous within myself. And as Abby was saying, with that sense of aliveness, part of the real joy that I find from non monogamy is just the sense that, that there are doors that are potentially being able to be walked through if that opportunity arises. You know, for me, it's it's really incredible to have the sense of possibility that non monogamy affords me so even though at the moment, I don't have a partner, you know, that that type of thing, that sense of possibility is just such a beautiful factor in the way in which we construct our relationship.

Ken Hamilton
I identify with that. I love that. Yeah, that that sense of possibility of the open doors is is key for me, I know what so when you have you have this this established life, you have your parents, how do you manage the the connection that you maintain as parents in the context of the other connections that you're making? How does that all work for you?

Liam
Well, I think for us, we prioritize our son first always, you know, that's something that we are Hold very close to, to our hearts is that if anything were to impact if other relationships were to impact our relationship to him as a parent, then that's when we really have to kind of nip it in the bud and kind of pull back and really kind of reconsider how we're doing things. But we feel that being parents are non monogamous for us, it actually improves our ability to parents, you know, it makes us happier people. It makes our connection stronger, which he sees, you know, he sees us being happy. He sees us being cheeky he sees me in the kitchen after Abby's got a hot text from a lover and going, Oh, what did he say? And then every guy's always said this, you know, and he sees that aliveness. And he's only five. So it's all within the confines of what's age appropriate, of course, and I know you guys have have older children. So there's different things to kind of navigate once you once you get into that stage. But for us at the moment, it really, it feels like a very even balancing approach and something that we can navigate quite easily that I think there will be some, some added difficulty in the future when we do start having the conversations, you know, like what the relationships look like, you know, our relationships only between a man and a woman like what are the what are the different types of of ways to perceive relationships within the world? Right,

Joli Hamilton
I want to highlight that you are you're spot on when you say it's developmentally appropriate. Yeah, I think people misunderstand that. Because a lot of us weren't provided any sexuality or relationship education, certainly in the United States, were provided almost nothing. And so we may not even have a good sense of what is developmentally appropriate. But if we step out and take more, more of a, like a psychological view on Well, what are children curious about, at particular age, ages, stages, you know, I think about what my own children have shown me they are curious about, it's pretty easy to meet their needs for information. If I if I just really allow myself to hear their questions, and to let myself enter empathically into their viewpoints, and not get to in my head about it not to actually think about how do I need to structure this conversation or like exactly what kind of information do they need? Actually, if I empathize with their perspective, yeah, if they're, if your son is seeing some adorable playfulness between the two of you, and it's been inspired by a text, well, that's just so far beyond his imagination. Whereas Yeah, we have adult children. I absolutely may say like, oh, yeah, I'm like, I'm in a text thread. It is totally distracting guys. You know, I believe in it, Playing Cards Against Humanity game over, you know, a glass of champagne at New Year's Eve, and I'm texting with somebody. And I will just tell them, frankly, what's happening because I am distracted. Yeah, we get to go through those phases and changes with our kids without dogmatically adhering to the monogamous perspective. And for me, that's been enlivening I in it to just be present to the kids as they are. There's something too about you, Liam, you said, it's about the potential not about the specific relationships are not about hey, we have to have a you know, we we each need to have another partner or whatever. I think when I think about being a parents, I can't actually plan at all I have to just be present to what is happening I just I just have to let it unfold and non monogamy has made it easier for me to practice just being present to what is to the the wonder that we're taking through life together. And the potential that's there without getting without getting too many ideas about what I need to have in my life in order to qualify this life as non monogamous or in order to make sure that my my children are successful. Like it's it's really about removing preconceptions and allowing for freedom. It's funny to me that it's it all weaves together. It's really about freedom of your mindset. In many ways.

Ken Hamilton
All of you have been talking about something that I think comes down to imagination, like the potential of this door being open. That's that's about being able to imagine that there are doors you know that there isn't just a one way and as a parent that has been interesting to me, who didn't get that kind of imagination expansion in my upbringing to see kids just experiencing it. I have no idea what their lives are like in this way that because they're exposed variants of us doesn't include the blinders and the the rigid structures of monogamy. They know about it. Some of them are even like, yeah, I don't know if I would want to date more than one person or have a relationship with more than one

Joli Hamilton
diversity. They're like, that looks complicated.

Ken Hamilton
Yeah, but it's in their imagination. And it's like, they can't get it out. Now. It's there, we, you know, we've done the parenting thing. And we've, we've, we've put this these ideas into their heads. And so that's kind of what I hear you describing is Yeah, your, your, your son just won't no different from that there are other avenues for interest and, and passion and connection to come into a household. I think that's just amazing.

Abbey
I do try and slip little things in for him as well. You know, he'll be if we're talking about he started recently talking about marriage, I think they might be talking about it at kindergarten, you know, marrying this person and marrying that person. And I've said, Oh, well, you're always getting married on the playground. They're always getting married on the playground. I say polyamorous, and I say, Oh, well, you know, like, you know, women, you know, there can be like two mommies or two daddies or, or maybe more sometimes, you know, your auntie, she's, she has a she's with a woman, and they might have a baby one day, and he just gets it, you know, he doesn't have all these blockages. He's just like, oh, yeah, of course. You know, and recently, he's been asking me, Mom, do you love me more, or dad more. And this is really, and this is a really interesting conversation to be having. And I'm really glad that he's bringing this up. Because I'm saying, this is an opportunity for me to say, you know, my love for you is so deep and my love for Daddy is so deep, but it's different. You know, I have a different type of love with Dad and I have a different type of love with you. But you will always always in my heart. And we can love many people, you know, how many you love your friends, don't you? And he goes, Yeah, I love my friends. And then, you know, he just gets it. It's like, of course, you know, you have more friends, like you can have more love. It's just it's different. So I slip it in in ways like that, just to so that he doesn't start, you know, looking at relationships in these boxes, without going into my own personal life or anything like that.

Joli Hamilton
Yeah, there's a there's a, there's a stance I'm hearing you taking. There's a an almost pedagogical stance of Yeah, I'm going to just work from a premise that love is infinite. Though. As we know, in the Pali world calendars are not dead. And from the stance that we can introduce things without indoctrinating, we can just introduce the possibility. And a lot of times people have made assumptions about Ken and I, there's been assumptions that like, we want our kids to be polyamorous or we want I don't want to like I don't, I don't want anything for my kids other than their happiness. I, I can't, I can't want for them. And something about non monogamy, I feel like it triggers some people in a certain way. And then there, it opens up this Pandora's box of of Oh, does this for some reason. Do you? Do you? Do you feel like there would be some pressure to adhere to a particular lifestyle? But I think that comes to an interesting question of Is This for you? Do you feel non monogamous as an orientation? And if you're not ready to answer this personally, you don't have to. But I love the question of for you. Is it more of an orientation to the world? Or is it more of a full philosophical commitment? Or is it a lifestyle that you're living? Everybody approaches it differently? In my experience? Hmm.

Abbey
Gosh, you know, I do feel like it. It's all of the above. But I mean, I haven't really experienced being in sort of non monogamous relationship outside of this call relationship with lamb you know, but looking back to previous relationships, I've always been a free spirit, I've always been a very flirtatious person. I have had other sort of non monogamous moments at different times in my life, but not in the way that my relationship with Liam has allowed for me to, to deep dive into it. You know, it's something that we you know, together we love unpacking, we love diving into the, into the philosophies of it all. So, yeah, I'm just I'm not, I'm not sure. But what I do know is that, you know, Liam and I, we, you know, we have been together for over 12 years we've been nominal Gomez for 10 of those years. I do know that we have such a commitment to each other that if, you know, I know there's a lot of you know, hating on hierarchies and things like that, but if there was something that came up in our, in our in our relationship where we really did need to sort of step back and become more monogamous. You know, I feel really comfortable doing that, you know, if and if an illness came along, if if some if something happened in our life where we just couldn't manage having other relationships and connections. You know, I think maybe we maybe we would become more monogamous in that sense, but you know, maybe we don't I'm I'm not sure you know.

Liam
Yeah. For me personally, I get it on kind of all of the levels that you, you said in your question Joli I think, I think on an intellectual level, I really connect with it. It just makes sense to me. I was brought up in a kind of, in a I went to a religious base like an Anglican school, but I never really fense felt this sense of kind of the the oppressive religious dogma upon me and the way I viewed relationships. And my parents never really talked about relationships. So I kind of grew up without any framework for what is acceptable, you know, as the proper relationship, which I'm now very thankful for. Because I feel like there's there's not a lot of precondition things that I have to work through to really deprogram which a lot of people that we talk to, within our conversation notes or even on the podcast, they've had to do this huge amount of work like to go okay, whatever I've been told by my family, by the church by society, and then have to reprogram that I almost feel like a bit of a blank slate. And so I've been I'm very, I feel very privileged in in the way that I can move through the world. And, you know, I'm very comfortable with Abby, dating men, and I feel great about it, you know, and I don't really have to do as much programming is a deprogramming as other people, I kind of naturally feel like, okay, well, that kind of makes sense. You know, like, this is all theoretical, you know, I can read, you know, a Jessica Fern book and go, Oh, you know, that makes sense to me, you know, this, I'm not really fighting through this. So. So either that speaks to just kind of lucky circumstance in the way that I grew up. Or whether that speaks to kind of an innate sense of, of inherently knowing that non monogamy is is how I'm programmed. I'm not too sure. But I imagine that it's probably, you know, a conjunction of all these things.

Joli Hamilton
I really appreciate that. And honestly, I think it resonates with how I have experienced Ken, as he he just seems to have this natural openness. There's just like an openness to openness. I can't actually imagine knowing a version of you can, who wouldn't agree with what Liam was just say, like, be in alignment with? Yeah.

Ken Hamilton
Liam, what you said about blank slate that that totally resonates? Um, you know, there are of like, like everybody else. I have no complaints about, you know, my experience growing up and things that I wanted to be different, because we all do, I think, but one of the things I complain about is that my parents never really talked to me about anything. On the other hand, they never talked to me about anything. That benevolent neglect left me with that, that blank slate that you were talking about. I'm just like, Oh, okay. Yeah. So I just get to think whatever I want, because I don't have the, and yeah, the My parents brought us to church, there was a Baptist church where northern Baptist versus Southern Baptist were, which is very different. So it was very open minded for the time. And there wasn't a lot of like you said, there weren't a lot of strictures laid down. Like, this is how you do things. So I didn't have to undo it, which meant, I let everybody else just do whatever. And I do whatever. And yeah, blank slate. I like that.

Joli Hamilton
So I love this because so frequently, people, when when I find people have established a certain platform, and they're talking about non monogamy. It's, they have had to go through a big deprogramming like often it was as part of a reaction to, oh my gosh, there's just a lot to unpack here, or they've had to, like leave their family system, or they've had really gone through some major traumas. And I applaud that like doing the work to be your most authentic self beautiful. And I think it's also lovely to hear stories of people just saying, Yeah, you know, what, it's actually been relatively easy for me. I'm like, it sounds like each of you are saying you, um, you just lean into your nature. And it it supports you and you didn't have an so much conditioning to unpack and dismantle, which leaves you in a place to enjoy the playfulness, enjoy the fun of it. And for other people, I mean, we can is in every single year of opening cohort, he's he's there and present. He's heard. There are a lot of people doing a lot of condition. It is just so much effort. And I yeah, I applaud it. But I also am glad to hear that there are more people in the world experiencing a sort of blank slate, hey, I get to actually figure this out for myself. And if I do, what if I just enjoy this? And this is making me think that your perspective on jealousy like how so you've said, you're pretty compulsive, both of you How does jealousy work? For the two of you these days? It doesn't come up at all, are you? Or do you feel pretty, like free from jealousy at this point?

Abbey
I would say that jealousy definitely comes up more for me than it does for lamb. I find that the big sort of moments of unpacking jealousy for me have been when they're sort of, when we're dating sort of a little bit, you know, less out of it just being more about a sexual connection, and more about sort of having a bit more of a relationship, you know, emotional connection, you know, platonic, you know, or like, going for beautiful walks together and bonding, like, you know, over the years, they have been my moments where I'm like, Oh, wow, I can really, like feel this, you know, coming up for me, and I definitely, I think, for me, you know, I have had times where I react or I get upset in the moment, but then I can sort of, it can take me a couple of days. And then I sort of sit with it and think about it process that the Writing helps me so much, you know, I started writing because I needed to write for myself and to understand what was going on for me. So that definitely comes up more for me at different points. And, and it changes sort of with different people. Like sometimes I don't, I don't feel jealousy, I'm not sure why. And, and other times I do, and I think it can depend on what time of the month it is for me if I'm premenstrual or if I have other stresses and factors happening in my life. And, of course, sometimes if my own non monogamy isn't going great, I can be a little bit like, well, you know,

Joli Hamilton
then the Envy comes up. And it's like combining with the jealousy and now it ramps things up. Yeah,

Abbey
exactly. Like, I can be that person where if Liam's like, I'm gonna go to the Botanic Gardens for a beautiful walk, I can be like, Well, we haven't been there in ages, you know, like, that's, that can sort of come up for me we can we have those sorts of things.

Liam
We were talking with Jessica Fern about this on our podcast, and she she uses the phrase justice jealousy, which he told me, and I love that love that because I think I think that is what really gets me going. If if there is like, you know, if there is something that I've done with another partner that maybe we don't do enough, or, you know, we, because it's I'm in this new relationship, energy bubble, and, you know, things are flooding along, and I go, Oh, yeah, let's do this, you know, super specific thing. And he goes, Well, we haven't done that in years. You know, that is, I would say that is the tipping point. But I will say that my jealousy is interesting because the things that are out there that might stereotypically make a lot of men jealous, you know, like this, this idea of like, you know, kind of kind of leftover from patriarchal concepts of like ownership over your wife over your partner. You know, I don't feel jealous about Abby having like sexual relationships with other men. But recently, I haven't even spoken to me about this. So we can we can work this through in real time. This is a scoop but, but recently, Abby was it was just like a little pang of jealousy. But Abby was on this date with this awesome guy. And this guy is like, just the hottest dude you've ever seen. Like, I'm not joking. Like he looks. He looks like a model. And that doesn't make me jealous at all. Like I'm so stoked for Abby. Like, I want Abby to be able to hook up and have these experiences with the hottest people possible. Because she deserves it. She's a legend and you know, she's a baby. Yeah, so go for it. Oh power to her. But he in addition to being a lovely guy, and very attractive, he also rides a motorbike. Now for me this is this is a sore spot because first of all, I would never ride a motorbike because speaking of upbringings, I was precondition This is my preconditioning was that I was not I've never been allowed to ride a motorbike because it's too dangerous and now I genuinely hold this fear so deeply in my heart that one of the very few things that I completely forbid Abby to do with her non monogamy is get on another guy's motorbike right

Joli Hamilton
shocking I love this oh my

Liam
age Vito so this is this is a huge pain to the point where I will sometimes you know once I've been chatting with if I if it ends up me having a conversation with guys that Abby's dating and usually we all become friends, and I'll bring this up with them. And if they ride motorbikes, and they go, oh, yeah, of course, like, you know, I'm more than happy to date Abby and not ride a motorbike with her. But he rode me didn't get on the motorbike, but I know that he rocked up to the date on a motorbike. And then even the thought, I mean, you can you can transpose this on to any any other form of jealousy that one could feel. But even the thought of Abby getting on his bike made me feel jealous. And Abby was in a different city at the time and I was thinking, you know, I have no control. I have to trust Abby knows my nose, my limits, and it's as funny and example as it is it really you can kind of take the elements of the jealousy that I felt and really apply it to so many different things, but I did feel like an embodied, you know, like you would talk about like an embodied sense of jealousy in that moment. And I had to kind of work through, you know, like the just rationalizing it.

Abbey
And I wonder if that comes up more for you too, because I love going on motorbikes. And I haven't been on a motorbike in so long because, you know, it will be very distressing for Liam like, I'm naturally I love adrenaline, like, I love roller coasters. I've never been skydiving, but I think if you're not comfortable with me skydiving, like I can't do anything or I might die. I can't do anything where I might die. Date man, but I can't more

Joli Hamilton
orgies instead.

Ken Hamilton
Over it's pretty easy. Exactly.

Abbey
But it was funny. I did say to him, I said, Look, I can't ever go on the bike, because of course, it's hard take you for a ride on the bike sometime. I was like, show off, try to show up. I'm like, Look, I can't I can't go on the bike. But maybe sometime, I could come and we could do like an evolving love project photo shoot on the bike, you know, because Liam takes these photos of me as well. And I'm like, this is a compromise.

Liam
Right? Yeah, I mean, I'm I mean, you can be draped over the bike naked. And that's totally fine. But as soon as he puts the keys in the ignition, that's when we got problems.

Joli Hamilton
We have to go now the limit. So I actually, I love this so very much. Because there is an element of humor to it that imagine if someone were struggling with, say, a one penis policy, and they were like, imagine a guy who's just really struggling and he's, he's trying to do the intellectual work to let go. And he's saying I don't own my wife. I'm, I'm I want to work through this. It's really hard to have a sense of humor about it. Right, like and, and yet I see, like all four of us were just giggling our way through that discussion. If we could bring a sense of levity to like, yeah, I have this, I have this internal limit. That's really a struggle for me. And I do want to work through it. And the levity, I think makes space for compromise. Yes, collaboration, yes. But also potentially space for you, Liam to grow over time, and to not then look back,

Liam
oh, now you're triggering me jelly, I know.

Abbey
It's going I love where this is over

Joli Hamilton
time expert, you experience an ability to to grow in this way that makes space for Abby to take responsibility for her safety in this way. The beautiful thing here would be, you could look back and say, Look, that was a version of me, that was a version of me who was not taking themselves so seriously, but did have this limit did absolutely have this limit. And the difference here is often I see people when they do when they like some growth has happened, some change has happened. Or maybe you just get to a spot in life where you're like, oh, actually, and now our child is older, and it doesn't feel as risky or scary or whatever, whatever happens. I have a fear of motorcycles, too. So I'm actually with you, Liam, but whatever happens, if you could look back at this version of you with compassion, and say like, oh, he like he really he this was a deep need. He had a wound here he had he had something he really needed, if you would look at that with compassion, instead of trying to defend that position, because the place I see people get dug in is I believed this once. And now I have to keep defending it. And I dig it down and it becomes part of my identity. So if we're talking about a motorbike now, that's pretty straightforward. You guys get to negotiate about that. But if we're talking about one penis policy, I would say, Well, I'm going to hope for you that you grow and grow through the need to have that as a strict limit. And I would hope that you didn't defend that limit, because that would be so challenging. And it makes it easy for for us to get stay stuck, right? Because we get identified with this this person who can't stretch who can't change, and who was righteous in that in that particular limit in that fear. But I think the levity that you brought to it says that, even if it never loosens up even if you're like Nope, that is a limit for me for life. There is still the potential to treat it with this lightness, and it's not heavy, and it's weighing down the relationship that you have with Abby. Whereas often we see that we see this like, oh, and I can see like, I can see the resentment, like a choke chain on someone and it's just terrible. And I saw none of that. So I'm very Yeah,

Liam
well, I mean, it is it is really important. And we really value humor within our conversations and difficult conversations and we can always laugh. I would say almost that example of the bike is almost an argument for why non monogamous conversations are easy. I would I would find a difficult non monogamous conversation easier if it didn't because for me the bike example as funny as it may be, involves a safety risk.

Joli Hamilton
And moving on to FY two

Liam
and removing all levity for me it actually is something that statistically I feel like Abby is more at risk. And as a parent, it kind of taps into this, this mortality question. And for me, I want to protect our ability to be parents and also selfishly, to make sure Abby's around for myself as a partner, but like the one penis policy is different, in a sense, because there isn't that sense, if done consensually and safely, of course, you know, there, isn't it? There's not necessarily a safety risk. And of course, so the two examples, whilst they hold similar kind of, you know, characteristics, there are some very distinct variables. And I think that the overarching thing of, of mortality, and it's something that I think, you know, Abby, and I've spoken a lot about, you know, going back to your question about kind of drivers for non monogamy, I think the one of the key drives for me with my non monogamy is that, that fear and that acknowledgement of my own mortality. And I think about this a lot. And we had a, we had a really interesting conversation with an ABC journalist and with wipr on a podcast, and she had cancer when she was younger. And I kind of raised that question like, do you think, you know, this, this being so close to death has kind of created this almost like hedonistic pursuit within you, you know, that might be driving you forward, and these like particular ways, and I think I can really, I can really see that within myself. And so when the bike example comes up, and when you when you are saying like, Oh, you know, maybe you'll change, you know, like that, to me, is the closest that I would come to being like that kind of really reactive person, when, when someone goes, you should not have a one pane of glass. And the guy was no, this is my rule for the rest of my life. And then I feel like that is me with the bike, because I'm like, Well, maybe when we're 70, like, Let's go crazy. Let's skydive, let's like climb to the top of like the Empire State Building with our underpants on our head.

Ken Hamilton
But what I what I liked about it, and what I liked about what Joli said is, you keep coming back to the core point of it, the core point of it, which is for you, it's the safety, you're not digging into I am someone who is against motorcycles, which is something that can happen. And I think that's kind of one of the points he was making is, yep. You could look back later and say, Okay, this is how I was feeling. And yeah, there was lightness to it. And you have the opportunity to say, I still understand where I came from there. And now I see things different. Whereas if you if you did if you wrote that reactive response that I completely understand, if you wrote it, and let it be the thing that drove your your reactions, then now you are just someone who is against it. And you there's no point in the future where you could look back without completely changing your identity and say, Oh, I thought something different back then. Oh, no, you have to be someone else. And so by keeping it in the focus of, well, this is how I got there. And it just flexes who I am. Yeah,

Liam
and I love that because having that flexibility. Like I'm open to the statistics changing on you know, the risk of riding a motorbike. You know, if motorbikes were to suddenly become really safe tomorrow, I go great jump on, like, let's, let's do this, right. But the reality is like something like if someone when we've had discussions with people about using your example of the one penis policy, once you start to unpack something, you know, there's clearly logical flaws within the argument for that, you know, and it's, it's really about us being flexible. Now. I feel really flexible in my, you know, I feel totally fine being proven wrong, but motorcycles aren't more dangerous than driving a car. You know, so, so,

Joli Hamilton
except you won't be

Liam
you won't be a bit that I won't be.

Joli Hamilton
But here's the thing, I think you are talking about something that let's let's just draw the parallel a little further. When someone is feeling the desire to put a limit to put a boundary around their partner's behavior often it does feel like a safety threat. Right? It may not be a so you have a statistical safety threat. Now I I have my own. I actually have quite a bit of knowledge about the risks of motorcycles. They terrify me and my 19 year old daughter owns one it's it's legitimately terrifying. Ian's you have the stats on your side, which is like kind of cool and relaxing. I like I feel the relaxation in my own nervous system just recognizing that. But when someone is saying I don't feel comfortable with my partner having this kind of relationship, or I don't feel comfortable with my partner falling in love, but I'm okay with them having sex, it feels like a statistical safety risk to them, it feels like it. And I think this is a, I did not know the conversation was gonna go here. But I think it's an important point to make that it feels like a safety risk. And then the question comes with, Okay, is there stuff to unpack there? Because, Liam, you're right, like there are, there are safety risks that actually have nothing to do with what Abby would be doing on this bike and everything to doing to do with how other people operate in a road system, right, and how the structure the physical structure of this is. So if someone starts to unpack their ideas of what it means to fall in love of what it means to have sex with another person, we can start to realize that that thing that feels like a legitimate safety risk is actually an attachment safety risk. And those are two different things. It's now Yes, still legitimate, but now it's in the emotional realm versus in the physical realm. And now we have to start asking other questions. And I think that actually brings us to a point where we can say, and you still get to have your limits, I actually like, I don't think one penis policies are cool. And I wouldn't condone anyone hanging on to it. But I do think that it often takes a massive deconstruction for some people, and they're gonna have to really allow time for that change to happen. And then it's a question of whether you're willing to stick around and do that unpacking together.

Abbey
I do find in this situation, just sorry to bring it back to the bike, but with the limits and how that sort of, you know, that's a no go for me, where I'm at, I'm actually comfortable with that, because I feel like I have so many freedoms in my life I have. So like, the fact that I was in another city on this date, having an amazing time. You know, in that moment, like, I'm okay, it's fine for me to not get on the bike. And also, it kind of also plays into this a little bit of like, it's a bit of rhotic. For me, it's like, you know, I'm sort of on this date with this, like, you know, he's got this bike, and I'm not allowed to go on it, like, forbidden, like, it sort of plays into this bad boy thing. It's a bit taboo, you know, I've got to do the right thing, because I'm not allowed to do that. And like that, that is like, really hot for me. For us, so there's an argument to be made there sort of works for us, because it's like, it's a really hard limit that I totally respect. And I'm not pushing it. And it also kind of turns me on that there's that limit. Yeah. Okay.

Joli Hamilton
Let's turn on dynamics.

Ken Hamilton
We only have a couple minutes left here.

Joli Hamilton
That No, I really do. I love it. Because, you know, if we think about Jack morons theory of the erotic mind, and you know, the four major core erotic themes, you know, playing with taboo is playing with forbidden fruits. Sometimes our lives are actually just that good that we have to actually create them, we have to create them. Because we have immense privilege. Here, we are existing at this time when we have so much access. So and I'm looking at the two of you gorgeous humans and thinking, I can't imagine why a little bit of constraint could increase your creativity, because there probably aren't a ton of constraints that the two of you feature feast like experience in your non monogamy. So that makes total sense to me, I'll be that like it would be a turn on, and allows the two of you to also experience what it is to, to honor each other. Like you don't have to agree with what Liam is asking for, to completely agree with his right to make the request and then your right to decide what to do with that. Yes, that's, that's deeply freeing to decide to do it, rather than just adhering as you have to. Exactly.

Abbey
I'm just pivoting it straight into a kink. Right. Yes.

Liam
Yeah. And also the communication aspect is that, that we feel comfortable to bring up anything with each other.

Ken Hamilton
You know, like we and I was noticing, yeah, like talk about it. Yeah, there's

Liam
no, there's no off limits for something that would make me feel uncomfortable. Like, I think problems are so often best, best kind of discussed out in the open, like the resentment builds, when, when something is sat on, like if I'd have just always harbored this, like real discomfort, and then suddenly, Abby does it. And then it's kind of, you know, explosion, you know, that is where it becomes a, you know, not a constructive way to kind of really, to add these things, but because we've really, there's really no conversation that Abby and I could have that is off limits, which is marvelously freeing, but it's also something that, you know, we've worked on within our relationship, like, you know, certainly when we started seeing each other, it's not like we are where we're at now where we feel super comfortable and talking about everything. We felt very comfortable immediately talking about our kinks. You You know, like, straight away, I was like, you know, I'm a kinky person, like, this is what I'm into. And Abby didn't necessarily have the knowledge of some some of that stuff, and power dynamics and all this kind of all these kinds of things. But we were able just through just discussions, just to kind of get on the same page, or start to explore these, which really opened up our ability to communicate, and then all the kind of standard relationship be like living together and, you know, putting the toothbrush away, like all those kinds of little squiggly things, you know, became so insignificant. It was like, we're having big conversations about sexuality about, you know, what we're interested in what what really turns us on what doesn't turn us on, suddenly having a conversation about you know, you know, like, these really mundane, like, who's gonna pick up the shopping or whatever, it's just, it's all kind of flowery,

Joli Hamilton
right? So is, is fall, because you're already doing the big things you've already and right from the beginning. It's never too late, in my experience, never too late to make that transition into, we talk about hard things. We talk about everything, we make everything talk about audible. So I like if if, if you can be an aspirational level of, of Converse conversation. I hope people hear that. Yeah. And speaking of that, since we do have to wrap up, tell people where they can hear more of your story, because I know people are gonna be like, Okay, I need to know more about these two. Where can they find you?

Liam
Well, one place to find us is at the evolving love podcast. We release every week. You can find it on any podcast listening platform, and it's also hosted on our substack, which is where Abby does all her incredible writing. She released writing once a week at evolving love. project.substack.com. Nice. And then we also have conversation evenings as well, which I held in Sydney and Canberra once a month. And Abby has this incredible women's retreat, which is going to be her second women's retreat. For anyone listening to your podcast in New South Wales or in Australia. We have lots of Abby has lots of people flying in from all over Australia for this month. And that's happening in May 2024. Yep.

Joli Hamilton
I love this so much. And we actually do, Australia is actually our number two listening area for whatever reason. We seem to be well loved in Australia. So I would highly recommend everybody follow the substack the writing Abby, chef's kiss. It's absolutely delicious. The podcast is lovely you've had on some of my favorite people. So I hope everybody wanders our way right on over, we'll make sure all of that is in the shownotes. Abby and Liam, thank you so much for joining us. This has been an absolute pleasure going wherever the road

Ken Hamilton
has been wonderful. Thank you both.

Abbey
Thank you both so much for having us. Thanks, guys.

Joli Hamilton
There's no one right way to design your relationship. And lots of people, actually about 25%, according to a recent national survey, are interested in some type of open relationship. But how do you know if you are ready to open up happily? Not everyone is and that's no problem. I've got a 62nd quiz that will give you the answer. And even better, you'll walk away with your next step whether you're good to go or not so much when it comes to opening up. And this is no BuzzFeed nonsense. I personally designed this quiz. From my years of academic research. Go to Joli quiz.com. That's J oliquiz.com. And find out if you're ready to open up happily and what to do if you are or if you're not