Cultivate Compersion in Your Relationships

Jun 22, 2024
A group of people stand on a beach facing the sunset. The water is blue with white foam, the sand is shadowy and tan, and the sky is blue at the top, fading into a yellowy orange just above the water line. 11 adults and 4 children stand in a line embracing each other and holding hands.

3 minute read

Compersion, the mystical beast of all emotions, an antidote to jealousy, a pleasurable feeling of joy for your partner’s joy… how do you get there? 

If you treat compersion as something that just happens to you magically, it may never arrive, but compersion expert Dr Marie Thouin explains that cultivating compersion is within reach for all of us.

Cultivating compersion begins with understanding what it is and what it isn’t. Reframing compersion from merely an emotional reactivity to an active, multi-dimensional practice encompassing emotions, attitudes, and behaviors puts you back in the driver’s seat of your experience. This expanded definition encourages listeners to see compersion as a skill consciously developed rather than an inherent trait.

 

Navigating Compersion and Jealousy Together

The discussion underscores the reality that compersion does not exclude jealousy; rather, these emotions often coexist and must be managed simultaneously. This understanding is crucial for anyone looking to deepen their emotional practice within non-monogamous relationships.

 

Strategies for Cultivating Compersion

1. Engage in Reflective Practice: Regularly reflect on your feelings when your partner is with others. Identify triggers of jealousy and consider how these can be reframed positively. Reflection helps in understanding personal boundaries and emotional needs, which is crucial for fostering compersion.

2. Communicate Openly and Regularly: Compersion flourishes in an environment where partners can discuss their feelings openly. Regular check-ins where partners share their emotional states can help prevent misunderstandings and build mutual empathy and support.

3. Educate Yourself Continuously: Keep learning about non-monogamy by reading, attending workshops, and engaging with community discussions. Continuous education helps normalize the experiences of non-monogamy, reducing the stigma or internalized mononormativity that can hinder compersion.

4. Practice Mindfulness and Emotional Regulation: Develop mindfulness techniques that help manage jealousy and promote emotional stability. Practices like meditation, journaling, or therapy can improve self-awareness and emotional regulation, making it easier to experience compersion.

5. Celebrate and Support Your Partner’s Happiness: Actively participate in your partner’s happiness by celebrating their joys, even when they involve another person. This could be as simple as showing genuine interest in their experiences or helping them prepare for a date.

6. Redefine Security in Relationships: Work on internal security and self-worth, which can reduce dependency on external validation from partners. A secure self-concept allows you to be more accepting of your partner’s external relationships.

7. Challenge and Deconstruct Jealousy: When feelings of jealousy arise, challenge them by asking what they can teach you about your needs and desires. Deconstructing jealousy can pave the way for more genuine compersion.

 

Ready to increase your compersion? Listen to Playing With Fire episode 157 now We’re busting myths about compersion and providing practical advice for those seeking to deepen their understanding and practice of this complex emotion. These tips offer pathways to manage jealousy and actively cultivate a supportive and empathetic relationship dynamic, enriching both personal and partnered experiences in non-monogamy.

 


 

Episode 157 Transcript

This transcript was auto-generated, and may contain some errors.

Joli Hamilton
Welcome to playing with fire, the podcast for people who are ready to custom build their love.

Ken Hamilton
We're talking about non monogamy however you design it as an individuation opportunity.

Joli Hamilton
Want to leave the default and make your life spectacularly you? You're in the right place

Ken Hamilton
Marie to in PhD is the author of What is compersion, understanding positive empathy and consensually non monogamous relationships, the first ever comprehensive book on compersion. Murray has published seminal research studies the first encyclopedia entry on compersion. And as the creator of what is compersion.com, a popular website that features her research blogs and a list of research research on the topic of compersion. Her work has been featured in several magazines and podcasts, including Elle the savage lovecast, a multi Amory, she's the founder of love, love insight, a mindful dating and relationship coaching practice, where she supports and guides people of all backgrounds and relational orientations to create intentional and vibrant love lives. Marie, welcome.

Marie Thouin
Thank you so much for having me again, on the podcast. I just love being with you both.

Joli Hamilton
Well, we had to have you back for many reasons. One is you and I could literally just talk all day. So there's that and you have a book. Your book, baby. Yeah. So exciting. So I was excited to have this opportunity. I know you're making the rounds in the podcast world. So if anybody is like, Wow, there's so much to cover here. And I wonder where else there's Maria's gonna book. And she has also been making the rounds with all the experts. It's amazing. I've been loving watching your episodes drop recently. And I just want to say as we start off, I see the growth and development and deepening of your work over the last couple of years. And it's really amazing to witness I really, really love it.

Marie Thouin
That means so much to me. Because yeah, sometimes I feel like I'm in a whirlwind. You know, there's just so much to discover so much to talk about. I'm having new insights every day with my coaching clients. And that just my research. So yes, I just don't have enough of 24 hours in a day to just like, talk about everything I'm discovering. And it's really fascinating, right, and

Joli Hamilton
I thought it was important to have you back because that's exactly what when we're doing research driven, coaching, like really, we're and we're the researcher, it puts us in a unique position. And you and I both work from this spot, the unique position of being in the development of concepts and also constantly updating our work. And so I want to make sure that people don't see a flatness like Compersion is a living concept that is is coming into being because we're talking about it. And I love that. So yeah, I think you, you're

Ken Hamilton
researching the thing and developing it. So as you do the research to become something else. And then you have to research that. And then you have to find out how people are interacting with it in the world. And I watch you do the work. And wow, it's so valuable.

Marie Thouin
Thank you. Yeah, it feels almost like a kind of three prong approach to learning about compersion. One is the academic research, which is interviewing people asking them how they experience compersion, etc. The second one is my coaching practice, talking to people who are in non monogamous relationships or living it, breathing it. And the third is my own experience my home experience as a human with emotions, with relationships with envy, jealousy, compassion, everything that I'm observing is, you know, all of these things are coming into my quote unquote, research brain.

Joli Hamilton
I hear you bringing reflexivity forward. So I just love it. I'm excited. And because you're a researcher and your your book, that's a that I'm not sure when this is gonna land, it's either just come out, or it's about to come out, but go get your copy right now. There'll be a link in the show notes. You have I mean, your your the person asked, Would you please define compersion for us? Glad you asked.

Marie Thouin
Actually, so my colleague, Sharon flicker, and I just published a first ever encyclopedia definition of compersion last year in 2023. And after a lot of conversation, which is oh, maybe that's another prong of research I did not mention that I should mention is a lot of conversations with my colleagues, researchers and coaches. That's really important as well. So through a lot of conversation, we came up with a three part definition, because we wanted to get away from I guess the traditional understood meaning of compersion as just an emotion. I think if you Google compersion, most people will say like, well, it's feeling happy for your lovers, other relationships, other intimate relationships. And that's true. But that's only one definition. So the three definitions, let me give them to you in order. The first one is the range of positive emotions that you feel in relations to your partners, other intimate relationships. So that's kind of the standard understanding of compersion, I'm happy that you're happy with someone else in consensual non monogamy. The second definition, however, and that came out of my research, and that is the attitudinal side of things. So it's the range of positive attitudes, thoughts and behaviors that one might experience in relation to their partners, other intimate relationships, again, in a non monogamous contexts. So getting

Joli Hamilton
when you and I were researching at the same time and attitudinal versus enacted was present in my studies, like my research would totally back yours up in this way. It was not a focus point for the research. But when I was back, when I was looking at my own stuff, I'm like, Oh, what, thank goodness, you saw this and named it because I think it's central and I saw it as just an artifact, I didn't see how it's central to the concept of compersion. So I'm so glad you centered that in the definitions. Mm hmm. Yes,

Marie Thouin
thank you. And the third one is outside of non monogamy, people are starting to use the word compersion to talk about positive, empathic emotions, thoughts, attitudes, and behaviors in relation to other contexts. Like, oh, you're experiencing a lot of success and your work and your friendships and anything. And I'm just going to have some positive experience around that, that is supporting and being on the same theme with you. So that's also I think, an important part of defining compersion is, I think it's getting outside of just non monogamy does it context.

Joli Hamilton
And it's beautiful to recognize that that's exactly how language works. That like language is what we make it it's a it's a living thing. And sometimes I hear people get a little pedantic about it, like Compersion is supposed to be for non monogamy, or it's, it came on a polyamory show. Yeah. But that's language evolves. It's, that's the very nature of it. And I love extending it into other areas of my life, because it helps me remember that sometimes I struggle to feel Compersion or to practice that attitudinal compersion in my non monogamy, but I'm thriving and other areas of my life. And that's just such a great reminder that it's possible. It's just it's within reach, I just need to figure out how to transfer that skill. i

Marie Thouin
Yes, I love that, I think, you know, we need to look at our relationship ecosystems not as just siloed, but as a garden, or an ecosystem where we're the same person experiencing emotions in different contexts. And we can learn so much and grow so much. And when we grow in one area, then we can also grow in the others are just learning about ourselves.

Ken Hamilton
And I like this, the the research you do into something that connects us that brings us together in situations where we might be driven apart, you're working on how to keep us together. I think that's fantastic. Absolutely,

Marie Thouin
yes. I mean, my own experience of struggling with Compersion shows up most often in my friendships. And that's where I feel like my own personal study is is, you know, overcoming sometimes division and envy and competitiveness in my own friendships. So I think that's really important to look at each of our bottlenecks. Like where is it difficult for us to feel like we can be on the same team with someone we love? And why and how do we unlock more of our love?

Joli Hamilton
Yeah, it's beautiful. It also is a strong reminder that we have a tendency to center romantic or sexually intimate relationships. And that's an another way that we can work to really diversify our relationship portfolio is to develop the capacity to, to notice our our effect and how we're behaving toward our other close relationships. And when I hear you say that, I think, sure, yeah, if I think about Compersion, most people pose it as an opposite of jealousy. But if you if you just as a thought experiment, pose it as opposite of envy, which we often conflate envy and jealousy Anyways, if you pose it as the opposite of Have env then that frees up an immense like, my heart feels something. When I think about like, what happens if I move toward Compersion? Where I am stuck in competitiveness and comparison? Because I'm with you that is that is a hard area. And we don't get a lot of cultural support. Like there's not a lot of societal support and, and conversation about that. So like, usually, it's just expected that if we have a friendship, it's just supposed to work easily. And if it doesn't, then it's not good.

Marie Thouin
Yes. And I think we often subconsciously cut ourselves off from what could be really wonderful relationships, because we're afraid of our own envy. Like we might not associate with certain people, because they just, you know, we know instinctively that they will trigger our smallness or insecurity or feeling less than and then we maybe steer away from those people for no other reason. That why want to feel that.

Joli Hamilton
And I mean, that, to me, that's a complex coming up and getting us in its grips. And now we're stuck. Because the, the reasons we can cite, they're real, like, You're not wrong. In fact, if you're caught by your envy, if you're caught not complex, yeah, you probably will behave poorly, like you'll you may act out, you may distance yourself in ways that are playing out at a just under the surface level. And at that point, it becomes hard, I have to call myself back in to the relating. And yeah, honestly, when I when I think about that, I think it's a lot of work to be a human efforts

Marie Thouin
through that. So

Joli Hamilton
the upside, though, of sort of compersion is that it gives me something to aim at when I'm thinking about the work and thinking about not just escaping envy or escaping jealousy, but instead working to foster something that I value being in the world, I value this because I think of compersion as one of my aspirational values, like it's a value for me, but it's one that I aspire to. It's not something that just, like, explodes within me easily. And I just like boom, it's just there, like, I'm gonna need some kerosene and some matches to get that going. I need some effort. So with the idea that it's possible to nurture it, which I know is at the center of your work, gives me hope, for those that aspirational value that I have.

Marie Thouin
Right. And I think that's the place where both of our work actually intersects, you know, your roadmap. You know, the last part of it is nurture compersion. And I

Joli Hamilton
always tell these leads together, they link together. Yeah, yes. So, Marie, we were talking this morning about, you know, what is it that gets in the way of compersion? And I think that there's so many things we talked about the myths, the myths surrounding compersion, so I think we should do some myth debunking. Some debunking. Yes. Let us on on let's debunk. Can you want to kick us off with a particular myth? I know you have a list there.

Ken Hamilton
Well, this is this is one that I really like, if you achieve compersion. You won't feel jealousy. Like it's a I don't know, a cure, or

Joli Hamilton
Yeah,

Ken Hamilton
like a magic spell, like a magic spell.

Joli Hamilton
Oh, we should actually work on that. Marie, we could just we'll just invent a magic spell for it. We can, we'll sell you the spell there. Boom, you're done.

Ken Hamilton
You're done. No more jealous?

Marie Thouin
Yeah. Higher, because we'll be just super rich everyone. Exactly. Well, everyone will be happy forever. After we'll be out of work. Yeah,

Joli Hamilton
we'll be out of work. Well, we always

Ken Hamilton
coach it up to the point that everybody comes back. And as soon as you because it didn't work

Joli Hamilton
till that, yeah.

Marie Thouin
I had an insight I had a breakthrough of compersion. And then I was told by my jealousy again. Yeah, my money back.

Joli Hamilton
So what do you think about achieving compersion, and then never Feeling jealousy again?

Marie Thouin
Unfortunately, that is, I mean, I don't know if I wouldn't even say unfortunately, but the reality is, it is a myth. These things are fluid. It's a little bit like saying like, well, if you achieved joy, you can never feel sad again. Of course, or if it's sunny today, you will never have rain. Things are cyclical, things are contextual, and emotions are fluid. And what I learned really above anything else in my work is that compersion is highly dependent on context. And my book really talks about what that context is and what are the factors that might promote compersion, what factors hinder compersion, and these contexts are ever changing? Maybe your partner is choosing different partners. And that affects the level of confusion or jealousy that you might feel. Maybe your partner and your relationship is also evolving. Sometimes you're feeling more secure, more abundant more at ease, sometimes you're feeling less secure. And there's less of an abundance of love and resources that

Joli Hamilton
yeah, and sometimes you're right, sometimes your threat bucket is just filled for reasons completely unrelated to this particular relationship. And if my threat bucket is filled, it makes sense that it would be easier to trigger and the emotion of jealousy, which is a threat detection mechanism. Right? It would be if if that threat is if the threat book is full. And then if I can't hold the, if I can't hold tenderly the fact that I'm not a bad person for Feeling jealousy, then I could definitely fall into a trap of thinking that somehow now maybe my compersion wasn't even real. Now that I'm, if I'm Feeling jealousy, again, that's one of the dangers I see happening. Like if we pose these two as mutually exclusive, which to me isn't the same thing as opposite. Something can be opposite, but not mutually exclusive. And it's puts us in dangerous territory.

Ken Hamilton
Yeah, you bring that you mutually exclusive. So would you say that? In your research, do you find people finding compersion, a feeling compersion and jealousy? Simultaneously?

Marie Thouin
Absolutely, absolutely. compersion and jealousy often do coexist. Me and Joli actually coined a word, camp or struggle to talk about those moments when someone really wants to feel Compersion and has potentially like attitude and all compersion or even some level of emotional compersion, but still also has a sense of threat, or jealousy, or grief or envy or something that is not really that might feel like it's opposed to the compersion. And then there's a tension, there's a struggle, and that is not uncommon at all.

Joli Hamilton
Yeah, it's, it's beautiful to hold it. As a coach, when I'm working, when I'm, when I'm with people, it's beautiful to hold the tension of those two dynamically different experiences. And as a human, it sucks. Like, I don't, I don't enjoy the challenge of holding both of those, but trying to pace over one of them with the other. Yeah, I find it really works very well. It's not a very efficient method.

Marie Thouin
It's difficult. And I think it's important to learn to hold the tension, but also believe that sometimes actions are really what define us. And it's sometimes possible to feel threatened to feel sad, but then to not act in negative ways in our relationships. That doesn't mean we have to spiritual bypass, you know, and pretend that the negative emotion is not there. But to be able to still treat our partners with love and kindness and support, even if we're feeling a little wobbly inside. And to me, that's more important than feeling happy and compressive all the time.

Joli Hamilton
I agree. 100%, I think we should highlight this point, the experience of of being with your emotions, like, Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be with this uncomfortable experience of jealousy in this moment, which by the way, not all experiences of jealousy are uncomfortable. Some of them can be pleasurable, but that's for another episode. But just saying, I'm going to be with this feeling, I often find people miss the fact that, yeah, you can be with the feeling, it can be uncomfortable, and you can still take the proactively positive action. And I'm noticing some discourse around like, well, that would be abandoning myself. And like, is it though? Is it abandoning yourself, to act in accordance with your values, and to behave in accordance with your values, and then maybe to revisit your relationship agreements, if you made agreements that actually lead you to a place where you're like, I can't I can't, I can't do this. Maybe you're over promising. And that's the spot where I find people get into, well, if I could just feel compulsive, then I could uphold this agreement. But since I can't feel compulsive, I can't uphold this agreement anymore. I'm like, Oh, we got to separate feeling from behavior. We got to allow separation of those two things. That's hard.

Marie Thouin
Absolutely. I mean, to me, it's, you know, conceptually, it might help to say like, well, what if I have a really strong work ethic, and I want to show up at work every day doing my best giving my best work. There's gonna be days We're, I feel shitty, I don't want to get out of bed, I'm tired, I'm hungry. But if I had to only uphold my work ethic when I feel great, then my work ethic wouldn't mean much.

Joli Hamilton
Yeah. So having ourselves in,

Marie Thouin
exactly, you know, having a love ethic or a compersion ethic, which is kind of an expression that came from a conversation with Vito Cyrus from my book, I think is more important than trying to spiritual your bypass yourself into the feelings

Ken Hamilton
into another myth, which is the compersion should come naturally and easily. Oh,

Unknown Speaker
yeah.

Joli Hamilton
I will, I would say this, um, if compersion should do anything, I'm I'm immediately skeptical. But I would say, I am always hesitant to should anyone. And the idea that we can't intentionally build a skill, I think of compersion as a skill. And I think the conversations I've had with you over the last couple of years, have reinforced that idea that compersion is a skill that I build. And it does not need to come easily in. And I would say, it doesn't come easily for me, or at the very least, it generally comes and sits right next to my jealousy. And that's just how it's been for me. But if I were to should on myself about that, I'd be in trouble. I really would. So I have learned this lesson the hard way. Yeah, it doesn't. It doesn't need to come naturally or easily. I'm not even sure what natural means. But I do hear that, like, I hear it pose also, when people talk about like, oh, no, no other animals are jealous. It's only humans. So it should come more naturally to I'm like, Dude, I have a poodle you should introduce the dog? I have I have a very jealous dog. I have two other dogs. But yeah, I get very suspicious about the idea that something should come naturally to because we're such social creatures. So much of what we do is learned and responsive. So you talk a lot about building the actual environment, like creating an environment that fosters compersion. What's What's something that someone could do to foster compersion? Well,

Marie Thouin
there's different categories. One is individually, what you can do within yourself to foster compersion. And that is cultivating, I would say a strong commitment to non monogamous values and beliefs. And that is the work of dismantling the mono normativity within yourself. So that's kind of

Joli Hamilton
fucking the mono mind.

Marie Thouin
I like that great label for that. So yes, if you can unfuck your mono mind, then you will cultivate more compersion automatically, that will kind of take away some of the beliefs of, well, if my partner is with someone else, I should feel in pain right now. That's just what I have to do. Because that's what I know how to do. Yeah. The other part of that is cultivate cultivating self security. And that place within yourself that knows that you have your own back. And that goes a long way to having the kind of security that's important to then feeling peaceful or even happy when your partner is with someone else.

Joli Hamilton
Yeah, cultivating self security is. It's an interesting concept. I've heard people argue against it in the in the AI, with the idea that we're social creatures, and we need each other like that security is an endemically about the other. And to me, it seems like a yes. And like it is about belonging. But we tend to put all of our belong and all of our security into our like a singular relational point. And that's a brittle system. There's a difference between cultivating security with one person versus a community. And when I think about do I have my own back, I don't just think about myself. But I think about what are my other resources like how am I resourcing myself in a diverse way, in order to meet the challenges of my life? It's not just about the like attaching to myself, but how do I actually treat myself? Do I have I put all my all my emotional eggs in the basket of one person? Mm hmm.

Marie Thouin
Absolutely. And I really like Jessica ferns nested model of attachment. I was just rereading that chapter and Polly security the other day because she talks about, you know, secure attachment not just with a person but also with yourself with the world. With the planet, with your communities. And I think that's super relevant to this conversation here about compersion, because the more security you have and all of your relationships, including your own relationship with yourself, then the more you kind of have that spaciousness to support your partners that are relationships.

Joli Hamilton
And this would be a good time to drop in the the ability to be secure with yourself from from a union perspective is also being able to be with your shadow to be with and so I talk about that. And the process I've developed is called the inner counsel. But there are so many options that we have for being able to hold the parts of me that are wounded that are struggling, that do not feel inclined to trust or to be compressive. If I can be a safe haven for those parts of myself, right? That's, to me, that helps me remember that. I'm not talking about security, as in, I am alone in the world, I'm talking about security as in, do I have a connection to self? Do I have a connection to to all of me, or are parts of me cut off and abandoned, and I see people cut off, they're jealous parts all the time. They're cutting them off, and they're, or they're refusing to acknowledge and I did this myself in the early days, refusing to acknowledge jealousy. And now we've got a jealousy is in the shadow. And we're trying to nurture compersion, and cut jealousy off, well, it's gonna be hard to have a secure sense of self. If I have these different parts of me, that one is valued, and one is not. I've got a real disowned siblings issue inside here. Real mental insecurity.

Yeah.

Marie Thouin
I love that. I love that you said that actually, I had a research participant who I interviewed for five years apart. And the first time she was very much like, Yes, I feel compassionate, most of the time in my relationships. But, you know, sometimes I used to, you know, I do feel a little bit of jealousy, but you could tell the way she was talking about it was kind of tense. And she really wanted to hang on to Compersion. The second time I interviewed her, and that is a Buddhist meditator, who has, you know, who has been on a spiritual path for a long time and has been sitting with herself a lot. The second time, she said, you know, what, I actually experienced both more now that I'm more comfortable with myself, and I've been doing a lot of mindfulness practice, I actually experienced more jealousy. But I think it's just because I have more room within myself. And I'm allowing myself too, and I can play with it, I can resize it, I can cry about it, but I'm not so afraid of it. But then I can also experience Compersion. And it has more of the softness to it, you know, it doesn't have to be the only thing I experienced. So she was actually not saying that she had a linear progression. In terms of feeling more and more Compersion. Over time, it was just more of everything, as she got to know herself and accept herself more.

Joli Hamilton
That makes perfect sense. I was just in a conversation with Shavon enrich from Polly podcast, and we were talking about the like the ability to be with our complexity and how it is. It is one of the things that seems to happen when you when you really practice your relationship when you get really intentional about relationships. But it's also something that you don't know you don't know. Like, when you're following a relational script. It feels like you're doing all the holding of your feelings you need to like it feels like that's all fine. And it's not till you're put in a position to have to really, really practice mindfulness like really like wow, oh, I didn't know how much more there could be. I just wasn't aware. So we one of the things we seem to expose ourselves to in a non monogamous context is a more conscious relationship. And that is completely within the realm of any we don't need non monogamy for that. You can do that. In monogamy. It's often I find at least my clients, they just didn't think too they didn't see the questions that there were to ask. So I love also that you're including compersion beyond non monogamy because it just doesn't need to be. We don't need to get keep compersion right? No. No, me either.

Ken Hamilton
Bringing us to another myth, which I think we totally just addressed, which is that compersion is only for polyamorous people. Think we've been spending the past few minutes talking about how it's totally not. Yeah, I

Joli Hamilton
agree. And can you I think you're a great example of that because you didn't know Well, the word polyamory, but you were open pretty much your whole adult life. And you, I experienced you as when we were friends before we had a romantic relationship I experienced you as someone who was what I would now labeled label compulsive like you practiced the moves of compersion. But you didn't have any of language, you didn't know the word compersion, you didn't know the word polyamory you didn't know any of that. And

Ken Hamilton
in other in lots of other domains besides intimate relationships, which

Joli Hamilton
thank goodness because you're kind of a jerk and a bunch of other areas. One

Ken Hamilton
redeeming quality, I celebrate you. But I like when people get what they like, like when they're happy.

Joli Hamilton
That's actually exactly how the early stages of our relationship, Marie, I would tell him I'm like, I love how happy you are for other people's happiness because he was kind of an asshole. I

Ken Hamilton
didn't inspire that happiness, but I was always happy to see it happen.

Joli Hamilton
Amazing. Maybe steps. Growth takes time. Yeah,

Marie Thouin
cuz if he were only in so if anyone was just an asshole, then they would actually not want people to be happy.

Joli Hamilton
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I was not a Grinch. It was evidence. It was evidence. Yeah. Oh, we should do us a Christmas special teaching the Grinch compersion. Oh, yes. Yes, we could. Roleplay I love that. Okay.

Ken Hamilton
The Grinch did learn compersion at the end. I think that's what that whole shows about.

Joli Hamilton
Yeah, it's like heart grew three sizes, I think. Yeah, we could totally roleplay a, a Grinch coaching session Grinch. Okay.

Ken Hamilton
Okay, I'll go see this.

Joli Hamilton
I love it. Oh, my goodness. Oh,

Ken Hamilton
it's this is forming in my mind now. Okay. So another myth feeling compersion makes you better at polyamory.

Joli Hamilton
Oh, my goodness. I mean, from my perspective, I know your actions only if you're acting in alignment with compersion. Like if you're, if you're making decisions because of that, but plenty of people I mean, you weren't, you were actually I can't I'm gonna call you in again, we were in a relationship that you have since labeled as abusive. While you were also incredibly cumbersome.

Ken Hamilton
It doesn't. So feeling something feeling anything doesn't actually impact doesn't directly impact your ability to do anything. It's all like your actions, the way the way I interacted with people around me, that's what determined my the, the my competence, that relationship, and my feelings could affect it. But then they can't change anything. I have to change the actions myself. Yeah, yeah.

Marie Thouin
And I'll add something about this Miss, because I get a lot of people coming to me for coaching who experienced a lot of erotic compersion. And they actually really want their partner to have sex with more people. Because they get off on it. And they're like me too. That's me. Oh, yeah. That's me as polyamorous person ever,

Joli Hamilton
I would never say that.

Marie Thouin
And that is kind of a double edged sword because I think it can be really fun. And it can lead a lot of people to, you know, the joys of openness and the joys of polyamory it's can be an entry point for a lot of folks. But sometimes it can become almost more like a kink, or function like something that is more about your own sexual gratification rather than wanting your partner to be happy. Like I've seen people like push their partner into sexual relationships with their partner didn't really want more for themselves kind of under the pretense of comparison.

Joli Hamilton
I have felt that so strongly Maria, I'm so glad you're naming it. It's been something that I struggle with because I that that was one of the very first things I identified that I liked about non monogamy. And Ken's pretty demisexual. And he would fall into the category I think of Demi sloth. Right? Like he can be really, really sloppy. But

Ken Hamilton
you could say Demi or you could say lazy, right? Like

Joli Hamilton
no, I but I but he's just like he's into who he's into. And I have struggled in the past with like, Oh, I'm longing to feel all the erotic compersion that I get. And that's not mine. Like I that's one of my business is none of my business. But it's compelling. And, and there is also I've seen it happen in poly circles especially like large community gatherings where there's a bit of like one upmanship. I see people kind of like, like being super proud of themselves for being competitive and having proof of their compersion. And because their partner is sleeping with so many people or whatever, and like, look at me, and it's just all really questionable.

Ken Hamilton
And then there's, there's a compulsive resonance that happens. So, so you want to see me sleep with more people. So you're like, hey, go go sleep with more people, like, I don't, I haven't found anybody I really want to, but you like it, and I like to see you happy. So then I take action, and like there can be his resonance back and forth. Which like everything else means the more conscious these things are, the more intentional and explicit they are, the easier you can navigate that stuff. Because if nobody if neither one of us ever said anything about that, then we'd end up, we could end up in all sorts of situations that neither one of us really wanted to be

Joli Hamilton
wearing like a sweaty echo chamber.

Marie Thouin
Oh, my gosh, I am reminded of the work of Betty Martin, you know, the wheel of consent and the quadrants of who is this for?

Joli Hamilton
Who's taking who's Yeah, yeah.

Marie Thouin
So I guess as long as we're clear, you know, who this is for? And who is doing what, then it can be all wonderful and consensual and compulsive all around.

Joli Hamilton
And we have to be careful, because now, do our other partners know what our motivations are? Because that's where I think it gets really, really sticky is if Ken were being performative for me, because I'm a bisexual woman, who has been put in the position to be performative for other people's boyfriend's a lot. I'm like, Oh, I thought she liked me. She doesn't like me. She was performing for him. That sucks. And then my hearts broken. And I don't ever want that to be the case. I don't want Ken to be performing acts that someone could interpret in a particular way, which intimacy is that? So? This is really like we're getting into the depths of how we have to negotiate and bring transparency into the room. And I see a lot of people struggle with that. Because they're afraid that they'll their chances go down if they're transparent, like, oh, yeah, yeah, I mean, I guess they do, because you're gonna have ethical, conscious relationships. So you're right. We're better.

Marie Thouin
We're cool, but operate and transparency and make sure that the people you're engaging with are a fool. Yes. That will serve you down the line.

Joli Hamilton
Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah. Oh, goodness. Yeah, we could go there. You know, what Maury, I thought I heard you almost say, when I was talking about, you know, showing up to a large poly gathering, and people are kind of like comparing there's a like a, I see a sort of King of the Mountain game being played around compersion, like I have the most compersion. And I'm now thinking about how comparison and competitiveness, enter in through Compersion. And I don't think I've really thought about that. But you

Marie Thouin
sneaky Yikes. Yikes. Talk about shadow work.

Joli Hamilton
Right? And especially in our community level, right, like, hard enough at our say poly kewl, or individual level, but then you take it to, you know, I'm thinking about like, like, my local poly circles, have, you know, there are hundreds of people in any given group, and then they're, you know, at a gathering, there might be 20 or 50. And, yeah, like, are we accidentally getting into some competitiveness just in our storytelling, just in our way of sharing? And is that actually fostering the kind of community that we mean to be building? And I because I think it happens unconsciously, we don't mean to be doing it, but it happens. Totally.

Marie Thouin
Yeah, I had a client the other day actually tell me that she was in a sex positive polyamorous community and she was with a group of women actually like talking about how many orgasms they had had. And there was this bravado about it this like, oh, yeah, I've had so many. I have so many multiple orgasms. Well, I'm the queen of orgasms. And this is interesting, because it can look sex positive on the surface, but deep down, it's actually shaming and creating this not sex positive atmosphere for people who haven't been

Joli Hamilton
here. Right? Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Oh, that makes tons of sense because the the experience of orgasm is also something, we can't share it. There's no like, there's no, there's no objective truth to it. There's just how I experience it. I could I can find myself in comparison with myself. Like last year, I had like, a totally different experience of my orgasm than this year. And so we can easily find ourselves in, in self shame or in othering shame. When we get into a comparing experiences, mode, gosh,

Marie Thouin
all these things are very subtle, because you can share in a way that's celebratory and inclusive and just really fun and friendly. But you can also share too Yeah, like one Help each other or to boast or to make yourself feel better. Like it's really subtle, like the why behind what we share and how we share? Yeah.

Joli Hamilton
Oh, that's so tender. So,

Ken Hamilton
as we, as we get winding down, one more myth, feeling compersion is necessary for happy non monogamy.

Joli Hamilton
Marie, you

Marie Thouin
got to take that one because I have a very particular take on that. And that is emotional compersion embodied compersion, not necessary. I think it's a bonus when you can get it. If the context is good, if you're experiencing it emotionally, that's awesome. But if not, if you're experiencing attitudinal, Compersion or benevolent neutrality, which to me is just interpreting your partner's other relationships as either positive or just okay. That I would say is more of a necessity for happy non monogamy. Because the alternative might be to be in distressed in distressed states most of the time. And that's not happy. You know, that's, that's hard to sustain that can be harmful. But, yes, attitude and all compersion. Yep, I recommend cultivating it. Emotional and Persian to bonus.

Joli Hamilton
I really appreciate that answer. And I've been thinking a lot about it. Because when I talk about the jealousy roadmap, I'm often walking people out of the idea that jealousy just happens to them, and there's nothing they can do about it. And I would say jealousy just happens to you. And there's something you can do about it. And when we get to that fifth step, nurturing compersion from that embodied perspective, I always tell people, like, Please let go, you don't have to do this. You don't have to force yourself through this. And please don't perform it. Like don't, don't, don't act as though you're compulsive to try to get poly points there. There is no, no one's going to stamp your poly card. You're You're good. But this idea that cultivating attitudinal Compersion, it really sounds and correct me if I'm wrong, because this is your area of expertise. It sounds like a practice of of in an ongoing manner. Shifting your your state of mind your values, making sure your values align with your non monogamous philosophy, clarifying what your philosophy is, and then making sure that your actions line up with that. And those practices so they sound like they're foundational elements of getting to experience embodied compersion. But um, yeah, they also just sound like healthy, non monogamous behavior, and something that's not going to happen just spontaneously, it is actually a cultivation of figuring out what is your philosophy? What is your what are there are no objective polyamorous values, it's again, there's no, there's no committee, that's going to tell you like, you have to do this, this and this. So you have to clarify that for yourself, and then actually live it. Hi, guys. It's both freeing and huge. At the same time, like I feel liberation from reminding myself that nobody else is in charge of my ethics, I am in charge of my ethics, I am in charge of my philosophies, and that I have to continually act in accordance with my stated values. And one of my stated values is that I value my partner's autonomy and agency in all domains of their life. So I like in order to live into that aspirational value, I have to act in alignment with attitudinal compersion. So that just makes sense. But I think when we show up on the scene, I see that taking years, I don't know how it looks from your vantage, but I see it taking years for people to even just comb this stuff out and unfuck that mono mind enough to get like, oh, oh, that's where I've been stepping on my own shoelaces and not not seeing where I was undermining my the possibility of compersion for myself.

Marie Thouin
Yeah. Well, again, I'll come back to the idea that it's contextual. I don't think some people get lucky. Maybe they open their relationship with a previously monogamous partner and their partner goes and date someone who is less threatening. Maybe that person is married and busy with other relationships and maybe they just, you know, like, how they are, how they look how they operate in the world is less threatening. And then maybe years down the rabbit hole thing And, yes, exactly, there's a constellation of factors that can create a result. And maybe the years down the line, that same person is going to have a new Metamora that then really gets them to feel more jealousy. Yeah. And then it's the other way around. For many people, like, they might start out with a very tough situation with a lot to grapple with. And it takes them years to get to a place of just feeling okay. Because the hand that they've been dealt at all different levels is really tough. But then maybe they have an easier path after that. So I would not necessarily assume, you know, like, the people who are just starting out and on monogamous path will have like an very difficult time at first or not, I mean, usually, there is kind of a progression that take, you know, most people start out and they have to confront a lot just to change their paradigm. But I would just go in with an open mind.

Joli Hamilton
You know, I think this, it's important to note that, that open mind, I don't know, it feels a little perverse, but I actually find in my, in my practice that people who entered non monogamy because their partner was interested, like their partner was the inspiration. So they're currently monogamous with their partners, the inspiration, I find in the long term, they actually sometimes even do better, I don't want to say always, because definitely not always. And I'm not even sure it's most. But there's a strong contingent of people who do better, because they do the work of actively, like nothing inside of them is just inspiring, like, I want more. Instead, they are unpacking their stuff. They're dealing with their shadow, they're learning how to navigate jealousy from a place of real trouble. And so when stuff changes down the line, they've already done all this foundational work. Whereas somebody who's just like, oh, I mean, I myself, I just I fell in love with someone, you know, explosions. It was years of later that I was like, oh, there's a whole bunch of stuff I never had to do, right. I didn't, oh, there's there's stuff to unpack now. And I think, simply allowing for the fact that we're never done with this work, we're just not we don't get to a spot where we've checked off the compersion box, or solved the jealousy puzzle, just in it. Yeah.

Marie Thouin
And can we add one last myth, before we leave is, because there's one that I just was thinking about today, as I was preparing for this episode. And it's not something we've talked about a lot. And I've never actually talked about it publicly. It's the idea that if my partner really loved me, they would feel compassion for all of my relationships. And I've definitely fallen into that trap of resenting my partner for not having compersion when I was dating someone else. And thinking like, well, they just don't love me, they just don't love me enough to feel Compersion in this moment, and I want to cry, thinking about that, and just thinking about kind of the myopic aspects of that interpretation. Because sometimes our partner really loves us, and maybe they're afraid we're gonna get hurt. They're afraid our relationship is gonna get hurt. They are dealing with their own stuff. It's not a reflection of whether or not they love us. And I think that's super important to learn, you know, for those of us who are like the enthusiastic Polly's who think everyone should always be like on version.

Joli Hamilton
Yeah, I think that's beautiful, Marie, and I appreciate your self disclosure there. Because the, you know, wanting a partner to feel compulsive about you can be really, it can put you into a spot where you're manipulative. I've, I've been there where I, it feels like a place where I can take the moral high ground, I could stand there and be like, well, this is a good emotion, this is a good thing to feel this is a better way to be, and we can get into kind of a spiritual, like, argument with a person and how like, what an unloving thing for us to do. To be to be trying to force someone to experience something versus holding it in an open like, well, your feelings are your feelings. And it also feels a little Yeah, you said myopic and I would say there's a selfishness. Please feel Compersion because then I don't have to feel guilty. Yeah, what if I deal with my guilt? What if I actually continue to return my agency to myself and say, you're having feelings? And that doesn't mean that I Need to take on guilt, I'm going to just be present to this. And that's hard. Because a lot of us were taught guilt is the appropriate response to our partner having any difficult feeling. And

Ken Hamilton
that can lead us into a conversation about what our relationship is for, and how, like, to what extent have we each sign up, signed up, to help each other through feelings and autonomy versus enmeshment, and all these things. But the more clear that is, maybe the clearer conversations like that can go but but what you were just describing Joli is about kind of taking care of my own stuff, like deciding, oh, this is mine. And I, I can decide not to hand it over to my partner. And just deal with it myself. And that's, that can be some hard work.

Joli Hamilton
Yeah. It's, it's just reminding me how much all of this and I know you and I have talked about this before Marie that a path of non monogamy or a path of any conscious relating style. So what I would call an individuation oriented relationship. It is, it is a spiritual undertaking. It is a philosophical undertaking, it is a it's not a small thing to move out of implicit assumption into Wow, I'm going to know myself with all of this mirror right in front of me. So far, this sounds like a lot. Yeah, because it is. It is.

Ken Hamilton
Marie, you've been researching this facet, which is, which can help us bring a different approach to some of the experiences that we've been dealing with have of jealousy or envy, or in some cases neutrality? Because that can suck on its own. So that's, that's beautiful. That's beautiful. Yeah.

Joli Hamilton
So Marie, tell everyone how to make sure that they've got a copy of the book, like, where should they go? Where should they find it? And where should they find you?

Marie Thouin
Thank you, Julie. So people can go to my website, which is what is compersion.com and find my book there, but you can also find it Barnes and Nobles, amazon.com or Rowman and Littlefield, which is my publishers name. So you can find it at least in these three places. You can also find me at what is Compersion I do free 30 minutes, introductory calls for folks who are interested in coaching with me and I coach on anything between dating Compersion monogamy non monogamy, you don't have to be a fully you know, like full blown poly person to to benefit from coaching. Just want to say that. And people can also follow me on Instagram that love insight dating.

Joli Hamilton
Yeah, I strongly recommend following Maurice writing, it is strong as hell. It is insightful, your your handle is well chosen love insight feeding is you have so much insight to share. And I'm so deeply grateful that you shared it with us. Thank you for being here, Marie.

Ken Hamilton
Thank you so much.

Marie Thouin
Thank you both. It's so fun to connect. And I wish we could talk all day, all day.

Carrie Jeroslow
This is Carrie Jairus hello from relationship diversity podcast.

Joli Hamilton
This is Dr. Joli Hamilton from playing with fire.

Emily Sotelo Matlack
This is Emily.

Dedeker Winston
This is dedeker.

Jace Lindgren
And this is Jace from the multi Amory podcast.

Carrie Jeroslow
Join the global week of visibility for non monogamy

Emily Sotelo Matlack
July 15th, through the 21st.

Joli Hamilton
Visit www. week of visibility.com. To learn more and get involved. We talk to you all the time, it is absolutely imperative to me that we get to hear from you as well. So we'd love to invite you to join us join Ken and I were holding monthly asked me any things you can show up. Bring your questions from podcast episodes from your relationships bring questions about non monogamy about individuation, about relationship skills, we would love to share space with you. We're hosting these AMA's free of charge for our podcast listeners, you are the playing with fire community that matters a ton to us that we connect with you directly. So I

Ken Hamilton
would so love to hear your questions and oh, that's so awesome.

Joli Hamilton
Yeah, go to Joli hamilton.com forward slash AMA and you'll find a way to sign up real quick, quick, and get an invitation to join us in a small group where we're gonna get Gather and talk about all things non monogamy individuation and relationships

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