How, When & Why to Visit a Pleasure-Centered Shop with Beth Hankes from Earth & Salt

~ 55 minutes ~

Visiting a pleasure-centered shop can be an inspiring and exciting experience for singles, couples, and moresomes. Beth Hankes from Earth and Salt shares how and why she decided to open her shop, and why it's so important for it to be an accessible, informative, supportive place.

Beth Hankes (she/her) is the Founder and CEO of Earth and Salt, and a sex education certificate student at the Institute for Sexuality Education and Enlightenment. She has a BA in Art History and Studio Art from Mount Holyoke College, and a Masters in Museum Studies from Harvard Extension School.
After concurrent years of identifying self-repression, questioning her sexual desires, and health issues, she was inspired to open Earth and Salt. With Earth and Salt, her goals are to normalize sex and pleasure, provide vital sex education to all, and champion other business owners and sexuality professionals, especially those from historically marginalized groups.

You can reach Earth and Salt at their website at www.earthandsaltshop.com, or check out their brick and mortar store in Burlington, VT

The following transcript was generated by AI, so enjoy the AI-flavored word choices and unconventional spellings of names.

Joli Hamilton
great relationships don't just happen. If you want one, you've got to make it yourself. But what do you do that when you didn't have the models and examples that you needed,

Ken Hamilton
some of us were lucky enough to have seen one or two solid marriages growing up. But that's not really enough, since what worked for them isn't necessarily going to work for you.

Joli Hamilton
And lots of us just started doing marriage and love and relationships the way we thought was expected. Only to find ourselves in a love story. That's I don't know. Okay, I guess

Ken Hamilton
there's no right one right way to do love. That's good news. You can let go with all that old baggage and craft a marriage or partnership, or chosen family or molecule or whatever that is so much more than okay. It's really the creation of a life that finally feels like home. At least that's what doing this has felt like for me.

Joli Hamilton
Me too. And getting here wasn't easy. It wasn't easy for us, we learned the hard way, the very hard way that love is a verb, and the actions of love. Don't just come naturally. We all need skills and tools and support to do this well. And now it's completely normal. Welcome to the project relationship Podcast. I'm Dr. Joli, Hamilton, research psychologist, and a sec certified sexuality educator. I'll be sharing personal stories, evidence based research and case studies from my work as a relationship coach.

Ken Hamilton
I'm Ken Hamilton. I'm a human doing my best to make relationships my biggest priority in life, we're going to dig deep and offer vulnerable conversations between us as we keep learning how to customize our love, and keep growing as individuals,

Joli Hamilton
as individuals. And as a couple. And as a more some, it's all very interesting. And we're also going to have some amazing, nuanced conversations with experts who can help you learn more ways to design the life you want. And if you find yourself saying at any point, damn, I really needed to hear that while you're listening. I would love it. We would love it. If you would head over and give us a quick rate and review on iTunes. It really does help other people find us and we'd be so grateful for that.

Ken Hamilton
Now, it's time to reimagine your relationship from the ground up. Welcome to the project relationship podcast. Hey, we're back. We're back.

Joli Hamilton
So we're continuing hot guesting summer, we've recorded some great conversations with some amazing people. We want to share them with you. And this week's conversation I think, is really just, it's a pleasure fast. I

Ken Hamilton
think it's fun for everybody, or everybody who wants to have

Joli Hamilton
Yeah, everybody's interested in intimate, sensual, sexual fun or interested in self intimacy. Intimacy with oneself. So this this is for people who are interested in toys, and pleasure and sexual health and pleasure and deepening our intimacy by exploring what's out there to add to the bedroom, or wherever. Okay, so we're gonna talk with Beth Hanks, and this is gonna be a great episode for anybody who's ever been nervous to go into their local sex toy shop. Anybody who's ever been like, you know, I know there's 140 minutes from here, but yeah, we have we just haven't gone. Why? I don't know. I don't know what it'll be like, I

Ken Hamilton
don't know what it's gonna be like, I have a pre I have an idea of what it is gonna be like, and I'm not sure I want that you know, your own imagination. And

Joli Hamilton
maybe you've gone in yourself, but you've never gone with your partner or partner. It's yeah, yeah. So I wanted to do this episode because can you and I, when we first got together to say you were a neophyte in the toy area would be putting it lightly.

Ken Hamilton
Oh, yeah. It was something that didn't exist it it didn't match my my identity, the one that I kind of came out of my, my upbringing and everything. Like that's for other people.

Joli Hamilton
Right. So I think that's really interesting. And I think it's a great thing to just say out loud because from the outside, you look like a confident calm, self assured, knowledgeable and sensual being but the first time I bought brought my vibrator into our sexual escapades, and they were escapades at the streets wide ranging all over Western Massachusetts. countryside. Um, it's your very excited, you're super supportive is

Ken Hamilton
the word I was going to use. But also, what's the other word? Um, I wasn't I didn't know what to do like that. It's great. What happens now because I just hadn't engaged in the idea of toys,

Joli Hamilton
right? Except we leveraged that. So I think we got really lucky. Or maybe I just had a really particularly smarty pants moment. I knew from the pornography that we had watched together, I knew that we'd watch porn together just enough to know that you liked watching people use toys, right? So I could see that you were excited, I could feel that you were excited. So I didn't know that that was present. And so I wasn't fearful about bringing toys into our experience. But I also realized that you, you just didn't know you didn't know what words to use around it. That's right. It wasn't so much the actions because you were actually great about moving into action with them. So if I had something and I brought it into the room, great. But you had no idea how to ask for. What else is there?

Ken Hamilton
Yeah, yep. I didn't know how to, I didn't know even know how to form the questions, that would have gotten us to the fun,

Joli Hamilton
right. And so this episode is perfect for a person you were at that time. Or anyone who's in a relationship, and they're just not sure how to start incorporating Yeah, trips to a local shop, or even shopping online, but with a knowledgeable hand to like, like, Okay, what might suit our particular needs, because I mean, sex toys, there, they are about pleasure, but they're also about accessibility. Sex toys are about making the acts of pleasure pleasurable for all types of bodies. So if you have mobility issues, or you have specific lubrication issues, or anything at all like that, it's going to a shop, having some guidance, the people who work in our local toy shops, and some of our really excellently run indie online shops. They're a great help

Ken Hamilton
there. There's people who are visits, this is their business,

Joli Hamilton
right. And this is what they love to do. And Beth in particular, she really, we really align on what we understand to be a primary goal of connection, which is to get to know ourselves, so that we can connect with others, right. So that's why I was so excited to have this conversation. And so right before we get into it, I want to address one other issue. We've talked about shame. We've talked about shame about China, but I don't think we should really open this conversation without addressing. You mentioned, feeling a certain way about not, you know, not knowing how to talk about. There's a reason why, yeah, and it wasn't that you just didn't have the words you are an incredibly articulate human with a vocabulary that kicks my ass at Scrabble.

Ken Hamilton
But the but my eyes so that I'm sure there's more to it than this. But one of the first things I see is my upbringing involved. Zero talking about sex zero, talking about pleasure even. And so when, and sex it I mean, it comes up out of me, I feel sexual desire, I respond in sexual ways I respond to sexual things, but no one would talk about it. So if nobody was talking about this thing, and no one wanted to talk about it, it must be bad. So now I take this thing that's just part of me. And we in the silence, build it into a feeling of shame. And so when I, I found myself with you, who was perfectly willing and comfortable to talk about and do all these things, it was confusing. And I had to stand there in my shame, and watch you stand in the same place without shame, and figure out how I communicate with you. Yeah.

Joli Hamilton
And I think that you speak to this issue in a way that, like, I just can't, because I don't your experience. It's not so I was raised in a house where Oh, my God, there was there were all kinds of weird, messy stuff, but there. My parents didn't. They didn't skip talking about sex. It was pretty normalized. I didn't get any good sex education. But But talking about sex was normal. Like it could be spoken about. It was joked about, like, there's the thing, the primary tool of talking about it was humor. So there was a lot of misinformation. But the other thing about me is that I have a tendency to take things that most people find somehow to be untouchable and I I feel do the flip of that. So money, sex, religion, all that stuff I tend to want to lean in. And so it was normal for me when I noticed people feeling a tendency not to talk about this stuff, just just to do it anyways. And that wasn't normal for you that like, No, not at all natural response. And what you were trained to do was to not ask questions, and you were living, trained not to ask questions.

Ken Hamilton
I was I was explicitly changed, trained not to ask questions. To avoid my curiosity.

Joli Hamilton
When did that start?

Ken Hamilton
I was a little kid. I remember being five, I think it was right, right before I started going to school.

Joli Hamilton
That's a rough lesson.

Ken Hamilton
I didn't like it. I did not enjoy that feeling of me having my curiosity put into a bucket of things that were just annoying.

Joli Hamilton
Annoying there. So that is the pervasive emotion that I remember feeling from you. When I would, I would then flip it around. And I would ask you a bunch of questions. And I would feel like you were annoying. Right. And I was

Ken Hamilton
trained that it was an annoying thing, right? Even though I had all the questions to,

Joli Hamilton
it didn't actually take you that long to break that. That habit, it did take some getting real explicit, I had to get really explicit because Yeah, it feels like I'm annoying you by asking you these questions. But what I want is, for this to be more fun, what I want is for us to have, and I didn't have all of the pleasure centric language I have now. But I would say things like, I want this to be fun. I want this to be good for both of us. And I want to bring in not just objects, but toys and tools. Yeah, that would be additive for both of us.

Ken Hamilton
And I believed you. I believed that you wanted it to be fun that this was actually intended to to grow our sexual experience and our relationship. And I had to believe it past the shame messages that told me that that couldn't possibly be true.

Joli Hamilton
And I had to be careful. Because it was so easy for me to accidentally reinforce the shame.

Ken Hamilton
Well, because it was so pervasive as easy to touch. But also because I was trained

Joli Hamilton
that you lighten the mood by making a joke.

Ken Hamilton
This just happened to us this and I was gonna talk about that too. Yeah, it just happened.

Joli Hamilton
I was trained that when you have to, like, help somebody reprogram something that's not working. Like when you have to reformat something that's going on. Yeah, you make light of it. You make a funny joke. You're like, Oh, that's funny. So this morning, I said something about Well, hey, I you know, you're not much of a hunter. I would have thought you'd be a better gatherer I wanted him to select more perfect produce. Yeah. What do you got to produce? The plums went

Ken Hamilton
bad real fast. That's all but so yeah, happened, Leon's and it did even though I so value humor in all situations as a supportive way of keeping people related. But there you you tried to make it funny. And in me, I, I don't know, I can't I still don't know exactly what I wanted in that situation. Yeah.

Joli Hamilton
But I felt you receiving it, I started getting the messages like, Oh, this isn't going well. And so I relied on the one tool that I think has been most beneficial to us as we really level up. So we've been we've been doing good relational building for many years. And this one, the past year or so I think has been our primary level up. It's having a meta conversation about the conversation we're having. So we'll just say like, hang on, I hear the conversation we're having kind of going off track or one or one or both of us is having a reaction. Can we talk about how we're talking about this. And so we we stopped talking about the produce, or we stop talking about the vibrator and for a second talk about how we want to talk about it. And so the tool of a meta conversation has really helped us step into a whole new realm where we can talk about stuff that we couldn't talk about before, and I'm so grateful for that. And okay, so without further ado, let me introduce Beth. Thanks. Beth Hanks is the founder and CEO of Earth insults, and a sex education certificate students at the Institute for sexuality, education and enlightenment where I also received my training and where I teach now. She has a BA in Art History in studio art from Mount Holyoke, and a master's in museum studies. So this store, let me just tell you a pretty her Master's is from Harvard Extension School. So after concurrent years of identifying sexual self repression, and questioning her sexual desires and health issues, Beth was inspired to open earthen salts, and earthen salt is a place where she can put into real life. Her values her goals of normalizing sex and pleasure providing vital sex education to all and to be a champion to other business owners and sexuality professionals, especially those from historically marginalized groups cannot wait for you to listen to this conversation. Sure.

Ken Hamilton
It's a great conversation.

Joli Hamilton
Welcome to the show. Beth, thank you so much for joining us.

Beth Hankes
Yes, thank you so much for having me. So excited.

Joli Hamilton
I yeah, I was thrilled, I was just so excited to have this conversation. Because, you know, Ken, and I talk about sex all the time. And we talked about it publicly, we talked about on the show, but also in a million other settings. And I know you talk about sex all over the place. Not everybody does. And you have a specialty that I am so excited to share with our audience. So just go ahead and introduce yourself to the audience.

Beth Hankes
Sure. Thank you. So I'm Ben Hankes. My pronouns are she her I own Earth and salt, which is a pleasure centered adult store in Burlington, Vermont, I say pleasure centered, because I want to make sure that we're sort of understanding the holistic nature that I'm trying to reach, you know, it's, it's about sex, but it's about many other things, relationships, touch, personal pleasure, that is maybe sexual or maybe not. So I just want to make sure I'm meeting everyone where they are. And my goal with the store is that all people are free to live in their pleasure. So we're really aiming for pleasure more than sex, though, hopefully involving sex for those it's comfortable. And also sort of hitting those social justice things that are so important, making sure that I'm paying attention to how there might be disparities in how people access pleasure that I'm helping to address that to the business through who I work with. And then making sure that the people I partner with are also aiming for those things, whether they themselves are, you know, bipoc entrepreneurs or sex educators from different backgrounds. And so just trying to create a really beautiful, holistic resource for people around sex and pleasure.

Joli Hamilton
It's great. Yeah, so this is fantastic. As a sex coach, I find myself all the time asked questions about like, sex toys, finding pleasure, figuring out how to talk to our partners about pleasure, and I am one of the unusual sexuality educators, I am an a sec certified sexuality, sexuality educator who doesn't focus on pleasure. I'm kind of a weirdo. Now, that doesn't mean I'm not against it, I'm way for it. But it's just not my focus. So one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you is because I get out of the loop about like, which toys are the right moves, and what's innovative right now. And also, there's something that I take for granted, I think we both do is that we know how to walk into an erotic environment of all sorts of different natures very comfortably at this point, we've been doing it a long time. What I love when you and I talked and we share something else we both have come through, I see the institute's sexuality, education and enlightenment, which is where we have both been trained. It's not everybody gets to feel this comfortable in this kind of environment. So I would love for you to share with the audience, how earthen salt meets people you said, like nice people where they are, how do you do that?

Beth Hankes
Yeah, I try very hard to be very intentional about not making assumptions, basically, when people come into the store. And also, you know, you can read someone's body language pretty easily, but I don't want to let that limit me and how I approach them. And I try really hard to let them guide, you know, they can tell me what they want, they can tell me what their comfort level is. So it's both, you know, being welcoming, verbally. But also with like the field of the store, it was so important to me in this store feels really accessible and very welcoming. You know, we verge on like the look of sort of a boutique type of thing, but that's done not for the sense of luxury, but for the sense of comfort. So that because people are used to basements, right, and I all the time I hear from people like Oh, I'm not going to come because he must be in like, you know, a janky basement somewhere. And there's a lot of posters, you know, where I am, there are some other stores and there's like, you know, marijuana head shops are part of the store, you know, and so it's part and parcel and that's a very particular vibe. And I wanted to do something completely different. And so it's very bright, it's very clean, it's well organized, I have a lot of artwork in the in the store. And that was very important to me, I'm trying as hard as I can to reflect people's identities in the store through the artwork, so that they can feel very welcome there through that as well. And then, you know, the toy selection is part of it, too. You know, it's making sure it's all body safe, making sure I've curated it, making sure I know what the businesses are that they come from it. And having that be in an accessible way out so that when someone comes in, they're not overwhelmed even by the amount of toys that it feels easy to enter into. Just looking at the toys, touching the toys, getting information. So just try and think through all the experiential elements of the toys. Coming into a space like this. Okay,

Joli Hamilton
this is possibly one of the most accessible opportunities I have heard of in a long time, because you also have an option for people who don't live near Burlington, Vermont. Tell us how someone might feel getting in touch with earthen salts, um, if they don't live nearby,

Beth Hankes
right? Yeah, so we, you know, we have an online store, which is pretty common. But I also try and make that really accessible, we very probably have a section on our site that's like shop your value. So if you want to shop women made brands bipoc made brands trans and NBA owned. Also Vermont made because there's a lot of especially local kink makers, which is really exciting and fun. And, you know, I see that as part of the mission supporting these businesses and getting their names out there as much as possible. So the online store is certainly one way. But we also have like some virtual workshops we offer, we have one, you know, in the summer coming up on kind of Lingus, I think we'll have one on the fall on sort of talking to your kids about sexuality at different ages as they go through. And then we also have our one on one appointments, which can be done virtually, where basically, I hang out in the store, you can book a time, and you can come talk to me about whatever your concerns are, if you have concerns, or you can just sort of use me to shop. And we can talk through options, and I can show you things live, let you hear how loud things are. But you see how large they are. And my hands, you know, have pretty normal hands. But it's always hard to tell online, what you're really looking at. So

Ken Hamilton
it sounds like a lot of community support, you're really, really supporting the people who are around you and coming to you. That's awesome. intention, the intention. Yeah,

Joli Hamilton
this makes me excited. Because before I was, in this particular scenario, with this particular partner, I was with a person who was a bit more close, a bit more shy about this kind of environment, and to have the opportunity to just do one on one like, Okay, this isn't even I'm gonna go into a shop. And I always tell people, like, go into your local shop. Don't be scared that people out there, they love this, they do it because they love it. They wouldn't choose to work there. They can work at target if they want to. They they choose this usually as because they find some real meaning in it so great. But also there can be a level of, if not fear, just a sort of reticence to expose yourself to this and expose. More importantly, I think what you like, yes, absolutely. You usually only share with people you're actually intending to engage with and not always even then. Yes. Next to me, how it took years for him to tell me what he actually wanted out of a toy.

Ken Hamilton
Sure. Hearing you describe what your intention is for the store and your interaction with with people is it's it's so relaxing to my past self. Who was I come from a background where no one ever talked about sex. Our sex education was a stack of Reader's Digest books, the ones that were specific. You know, the reproductive organs? Yeah. Because there was also, you know, kidneys and spoons and stuff. But that was mixed in there. And that was it.

Joli Hamilton
Yeah, that's not, that's not gonna be good for the pleasure. So

Ken Hamilton
at the point that I was like, I want to do though, not No way. Not possible. Right? I could not even imagine, plus putting myself out there. Just to find out how

Joli Hamilton
it was. You're a bi guy, and you're out as pie. Yeah. But Ken was, he was in the dildos way before he was acknowledging to himself, let alone the world that he was by. He was into the idea of it, you ended up the functionality of like, oh, what can I do with this? And I remember the first time you attractive shape, right,

Ken Hamilton
I remember the first time I mean, anything at all.

Joli Hamilton
I showed you one of mine. And you were like, I know exactly what I want to do with that. But I just imagine so many people having this, this feeling that they can't ask anyone. They can't expose themselves. And you've created a place where they can not only shop online because I know Yeah, sure we can find toys, places but one a curated selection of quality toys. And you mentioned something very important. body safe toys because not all of them are. Would you tell us more about what makes a toy body safe?

Beth Hankes
Yeah, I mean the there's the two most key things or materials the top one. So what is the toy made of? In general, the safe options are silicone, glass, stainless steel, crystal to an extent they have little micro fish and so sometimes not porcelain. Basically anything that doesn't have But porosity to it, because what happens is then they harbor bacteria, you can try and clean it. But you know, if you get like a jelly dildo, you don't put a condom over and you use it, you will get a UTI, or something terrible. And you just don't want to go down that route at all. So knowing what the material is, pretty much every toy will tell you what it is. But they will also give you a whole lot of marketing nonsense around, like they can say their body safe, and they are not body safe. Like there is no federally regulated information or anything around sex toys in the US. So you really have to be careful of what the marketing is saying versus what is actual. And I see all sorts of things that are you know, especially in lube, like organic body, say if gonna make you feel amazing. And it's like, oh, but you have five different types of preservatives in here, which is gonna cause skin irritation for a large number of people. So a lot me a lot of my work is just vetting all of these things and trying to pay attention. But the other thing you want to think too about is the base of the toy. So what's the handle? Is it gonna be the thing that you need for whatever the activity you're doing? And especially in anal play, it's so important to have the fluid base, because the anus is super strong, and it will pull the toy into your body. A rough evening? Yes, yes. Yeah, that's just not what you're trying to do. So, yes,

Joli Hamilton
it's a we do not need to add to the ER doctors. We don't need to do that a layered basis all flared base. Under all circumstances. There are zero exceptions to that rule. Zero. Yeah. And you brought up loob a fellow I see students now, an a sec, CSE Alio, Seth taught me a whole bunch about lubes. She had gone in and done some really interesting research about, hey, yeah, the FDA doesn't do anything around this. And we don't really know what's going on in the testing situation is rough to say the least. But could you make some general recommendations about what we should look for, or things we should stay away from?

Beth Hankes
Yeah, so you want to stay away from glycol and glycerin, because that basically can create ustun the body and cause yeast infections, which is just really unfortunate, and I still see it all the time. And lubes it's amazing. So that's one thing you want to keep an eye out for the preservatives are another not everyone is sensitive to them. But enough people are and I, for me, I I am always, you know, a little worried too, about bringing things in that have like flavoring or essential oils, because, you know, I would hate to be the person who gave you something that I said was safe, and then you develop like an allergic reaction to it. So there's a lot of times I say no to people, because they want like the arousal gels that creates stimulation through like Cayenne or cinnamon, and supposedly they're safe, but maybe they're not. And as someone who's had medical issues myself, which is partly how I came to build the business, and she's very aware that we don't really know what's in these products a lot of times, and as much as I can do to help people at least understand what it is and make good choices around it. I feel like I'm doing my job. So yeah, keeping an eye on essential oils, you know, the more the less ingredients, the better usually. And then just keep an eye out for those preservatives, because they are in a lot, they're mostly in the water base there, you're not going to see them in the silicone, and the hybrid ones as much. So if you're very sensitive to that, you can sort of look to these other options. And you know, the oil based ones are interesting, because I've really gotten into them recently, because they have such a wonderful tactile feel. But you know, coconut oil can stay in the body so long that then that can also cause UTIs and similar issues. So being aware of your own sensitivities to these certain issues is helpful.

Joli Hamilton
Yeah, this just came up on another episode that we were recording and I don't know which order they'll play in. So this will be interesting. You know, so another sexuality professional was like, Well, you know, I mean, you can grab olive oil or coconut oil and I was like, I mean, yes to a degree there are like we all want to have to know ourselves and to I mean, there is there can be cleanliness factors as well. Like what are you taking this out of what else has it been used? worn? Oh, god, yeah. oil based lube that I love by Mr. butters, and I flippin love and knows so well, for my body. It's been revolutionary, but that's not going to be necessarily the case. So this is this reminds me of when we were when you and I were looking for one like we have to test it on ourselves. We had to like you bought some we got some samples, and we tried them out not on our genitals. We tried them in other places. And it was an investment in time and a little bit of investment in some money that left us with a selection now we have like a range we have five that we like we know what to use them for. And that was a there was a little explore experiment, probably like a couple of months of playing with them. But now we have a little lube library and it's perfect. I love it. You know something special for anal play. Something thicker, more viscous. Yeah. So so good and worth it and If we're non monogamous, so also we have to pay attention to like, well, what works for our other partners? What works for us as a couple of more fluid bonded, so we don't necessarily use condoms. So then what happens when we're in other scenarios where we're in groups scenarios, there's, there's a lot to take into account, I'm guessing, wind up making a lot of recommendations based on people's various situations.

Beth Hankes
Right, right. And, you know, one of the most fun and surprising things about the store is a lot of times people come in, and they're like, just give me your best thing. And I'm like, I can't do that, you know, like, you're gonna have to give me some information about what you're aiming for. Do you have you know, medical issues we need to pay attention to? What are your preferences, which is fun, and like, that's where we get to have really interesting conversations. But people aren't always ready to be like, Oh, shit, I gotta tell you things. Okay.

Joli Hamilton
They probably haven't told their doctors or their therapists, right. Like they're going to, probably because they haven't been asked also, probably because they haven't been asked. You're inviting the conversation. I love that. And it, but now I'm curious. Why did you do this?

Beth Hankes
Why an adult store in the middle of a pandemic? Yeah, in the state. I didn't live in

Joli Hamilton
a beautiful place. But it's like sort of tucked down the way. It's not like you're in downtown Bay Area, you know, right.

Beth Hankes
Right. Yeah. Yeah. So many things came together in one of those, like, perfect, perfect storm situations. So leading up to making the decision, I had gone through a multi year health issue where I had been like misdiagnosed, it could not get help, I was on waitlist for months at a time doctors who wouldn't believe me doctors who made me do treatments I didn't want to do to try and figure out what was going on. And that left me feeling sort of very alone very much impacted my access to pleasure and sex in a way that really, you know, has changed me and you know, I'm still struggling with it years on, and between that and then opening up my relationship with my partner, going to a sex therapist, and being like, Oh, it's just gonna be a couple months, I'm gonna figure this out, this is gonna be no problem. I got it, I know what the problem is, we're going to deal with it, you know, still doing it years on those things happening. At the same time, dissatisfaction with being in a corporate job, which I think a lot of people can appreciate, especially now. All of this sort of came together. And I was in a trip in Burlington, looking for a store to go to with my partner. And I saw there wasn't one and I thought, Oh, this would be the perfect place for this. Within three days, I said, Oh, that's gonna be me. I'm gonna make that store. Because I wanted to make the resource I'd been looking for, you know, I, I feel like there's such a very narrow view of what sexuality looks like in our culture. And it makes me nuts, because it's just not how I work. And I'm glad for the people that it works for. But I just wanted to give a resource where people really could show up, however they're feeling, if they have issues, if they're concerned, if they're like, super excited, whatever it is, you can still feel welcome there without being like, oh, like, I am not as good as this, or I'm not as sexual as this, which was the feeling I sort of felt with a lot of other stores. Yeah,

Joli Hamilton
that's the thing. There's a right fit for different people. And many people feel held by our culture. I mean, that's why it exists, right? It feels it feels nurturing, or nurturing enough, it feels safe enough, and they're satisfied by that. And that's fine. It's, it's a little bit like monogamy. And that way for me, I'm like, if monogamy works for you, awesome you feel held, or your religion if your religion works for you, and it just feels good, great. And then there's the rest of us, and that rest of us in all these different ways that I think about non monogamy, kink, religious differences, philosophy, differences, political differences, there's usually somewhere between five and 40% of us that are like, Mmm, that doesn't work for me, looking across all these different intersections. And so we need service too. So I see that you're stepping up into that and in multiple ways because something else that you did that I really respect is you decided to continue your education so that you would be really bringing not just a base level of information, but an evolving information because the field of sexuality is well it's growing fast. I mean, I I'm always stunned by like, oh my god, there's more for me to know so much. How does your your own self education your your education path fit into running the store?

Beth Hankes
i It feels like the most important thing I could have done as I started this because everyone's experience is so unique and has so much to it. You know, I can't I'm not talking to people just about sex, I'm talking to them about their life history, I'm talking to them about their relationships, their communication style, their health issues, you know, the environment, they're in racism, whatever it might be, that's impacting them. It's all there. And I think that was the thing that made me a little crazy about other places is it sex feels very siloed. In the culture, it's like the thing you go do, and then you have the rest of your life. And it's just like, that's not how we actually operate. So I just want to make sure that I was paying very close attention to that. And I needed a lot of education around that. And as as much as I can inform myself as wide variety of topics, the better I can serve people when they come in and know what they're talking about. You know, and I had, I had my staff person sort of say, they want to help out with the one on one appointments, which is great, but I was like, you really got to get you a more baseline education, because the issues people are coming with, not only in the store, but especially to those one on one appointments tend to be just deeper and more complex and require a lot of knowledge. And you know, I can only assume so much, which is I have to bring in more people to help. But it just, I can't imagine, you know what I would be missing? If I didn't, I didn't have this education.

Joli Hamilton
Do you remind me of I mean, I did a webinar for ISC on sex and kidney disease. And I didn't. I'm not a medical professional. But my whole family has dealt with dialysis and kidney disease, everybody with me, basically. And so I had all of this specialized information. And that's, I think what you're tapping into, it's normal to have a need for specialized information, because you're a unique human. So great. Ken has MS. Over the years, he's going to have different issues. And ones for me for you. Yeah. There have that access to somebody who's willing to spend their life because I'm hearing like a life's work like you're never gonna be done.

Beth Hankes
No, no. And I have to remind myself of that all the time when I'm start being like, I don't know enough. And then it's like, yeah, no one knows. It's okay. Like you're trying.

Joli Hamilton
You're trying and just being open. I think meeting people where they are is a brilliant start, and then being willing to dive in and explore, like, problem solving. So that leads me to wonder. So what would be a good first question for someone? Like, how do you like, let's just imagine I'm thinking about couples that have come to me and they're, they, they don't even know where to begin? Like, we're talking about pleasure. Okay, now, that's the hugest topic possible. where might they start? What's a good question or? Because often, I think we jump to like, what's a good toy? But it's more backed out than that?

Beth Hankes
Yeah, it is best case scenario. It is. It's good to, you know, back out from there. And I, you know, I think the thing I was listening to one of your other podcasts, and it was all about the incremental improvement, right. And I think that's the best approach is sort of to say, Okay, we're taking a pretty honest look at our current scenario. These are the things that are limiting us. And you know, looking at, like Emily Nagasaki's stressors are the brakes and the accelerators right to do a control model. What's your accelerator? What is the accelerator that we can sort of help allow to come to the front? And those that require a toy? Does that require like a sex wedge to make sure that your back is in a better position? So you don't have back pain? And you're more excited than to get into sex? Is it a book where you get to learn about consensual non monogamy, you know, and get some basic info so you can have the conversations you want to have? So basically, yeah, what's going to be that thing that gives you a little bit more depth into the pleasure you're looking to have in the way you're looking to have it? What is what might be that thing?

Joli Hamilton
Yeah. So really letting it be an open ended conversation. So that it's not too targeted too fast?

Beth Hankes
Yeah, yeah. Cuz I mean, and that's what people come in, and they sort of want to go, I just need a toy that's just gonna, like, get me off in five minutes. And I'm like, I mean, we can do that. I know, we could definitely do that. But you know, what else might there be that's driving this? Oh, you have three kids at home, you have very little time. And you know, you have almost no privacy with your partner. Well, what might we be able to do around that? How are your locks on your doors? Right? Like things like that?

Joli Hamilton
And how are you talking about sex in your household? Because if you normalize it, then yeah, your your 12 year old can be in the other room and you can have told them Yep, we're gonna have private time it like we normalize that so it became very easy for us to have sex even though we had a house seven children that because we could just say this is private time grownup time. We're not available right now. And we had that option, but we it wouldn't have happened if we hadn't known to create a sex positive atmosphere,

Ken Hamilton
right? Yeah. And the thing is, you talked about sex being siloed and it's so much is because the same thing happens when I have to mow the lawn. Right? You're gonna have to deal with yourselves. Because I gotta go do this thing. We say This aside as though it should be de prioritized in some way. And like it's selfish, like it's selfish. Right? Celebrate your willingness to have conversations with people to help them get past all of that.

Joli Hamilton
Yeah. There's also a lot of kinds of ways people want to get off.

Beth Hankes
So every kind,

Joli Hamilton
right? I'm a fan of saying like, I mean, you can have sex with, like, it can be a very low cost investment, it can be a very expensive investment. I'm kinky, I have made some investments over the years in pieces in actual material objects that I love. I mean, that can be a real thing. I'm curious about what do you see people coming in to the store? Like, what are they? What are they looking for? If they're, if they're at that edge? And they're like, Ooh, maybe I want something a little edgier? Maybe I'm ready to invest in my pleasure. What might they be looking for?

Beth Hankes
The things that usually come up or like interesting couples toys, the thing that I get the most questions about are especially hands free toys, which are becoming more and more popular, and the technology around them is getting much more nuanced and interesting. That's probably the biggest thing I get questions about, I'm still building out our sort of kink welcoming space, we have a number of items, but it's not, it doesn't feel like a whole kink section. Right. So I don't think I've quite caught the audience that's like, I want to, you know, a big cross my bedroom, how do you help me find? I know people, right. So on the king side of things I haven't seen as much then but I also have a lot of like, relatively inexpensive items, like leather tends to be one of the more expensive items. But you know, you can easily get a really nice vegan leather at this point. And like, this is where my local makers come in, they can do amazing things and actually very reasonable cost. But you know, it's the buying trends that I see are some people, the primary things are like people come in, and they just want beginners toy, something interesting Tell me about that are a lot of times, there's a couple who comes in and they're like, we have $300 to spend, I need this, this, this, you know, like, they want a harness, they want to drill know, they want the nice lube. And like, I don't know, some nipple clamps or something, right? Like, it's like basically a full outfit, you could think of it that way. You know, so getting, it's nice to get a toy. But sometimes when you just get like the full thing and you're creating like a full body experience for yourself. It's it's a very different experience. People People get very excited about that.

Joli Hamilton
So something I recommend to clients, and I guessing this, that you you would be a good spot for this is to treat a trip to a store like yours, whether that's virtual or in person as a date. And one of the things I invite them to do is consider whether this is a date that you're specifically planning together, or if one of you wants to take a more dominant role like that can be a really baseline way to just play with, like, what's it like to be in charge and to be selecting. And it's been really exciting for some of the couples I've worked with, who are they're not really into any sort of formal power play, they do want to play at the edges of what it's like to have someone take erotic care of them. And I'm just thinking that a store like yours is a good place to play with that because it's just energy really, it's when I show up and feel like my partner can can talk to this person and can make selection can ask based on what they know of me and what I might like, can they can we have this conversation? Because the the conversation itself is erotic. And I think that that's where people wonder, will I be will I be harmful to the store? Like if like the store itself might be a turn on to me? Will Will that be bad? Is that a bad thing to do? But we both learned from Rasta Chavo. And I'm guessing you heard this at some point too. When you're teaching, sometimes there's erotic energy in the room. You're teaching about sex. And that's fine. As long as everybody keeps that erotic energy to themselves. Yes. It's yours to have, right? So if you're worried right now, if you're listening, and you're worried that that you might be turned on, this is an opportunity to learn about consent and how it works. Just yeah, you get to be turned on. And you get to keep that to yourself and have the experience and if you have anything to say or push back against that. I'm happy to hear it. But I've heard this worry before.

Beth Hankes
Yeah, I honestly, it's not even something I really think about in part because I think a lot of the people who come in I don't know. I mean, we're not a late night shop, you know, people aren't coming in around midnight or anything. We're not near bars and so there's not like the alcohol component and the loosening that that comes with that and Um, so I think most people come in, we're just like, in a really good happy headspace. And I think because also of the environment of the store, it feels like a place just to feel good. You know, and if people are getting off on it, I'm honestly not even aware of, like, it hasn't seemed very apparent. Mostly, you know, here like giggling, or there's people who stay in the shop for a while, like, it's just a wonderful thing to see. And so I just feel happy for people, you know, glad they're there.

Joli Hamilton
That makes me happy, too. It's great. So, what's it at the at the baseline? Now, let's just do a little physiology before we, before we wrap up at the, you've got all these bodies, right. And we we do know, genders, not? Gender is not a binary, really, nothing's binary. And bodies are complex. So given the fact that everybody's body is different, and everybody's pleasure centers are going to operate differently, and everybody's trauma history is different. And everyone, all of that, what's a good way to start the conversation with your partner? What would you recommend people do if they're like, Okay, now we've heard you, what do we do now?

Beth Hankes
Right? Yeah, yeah, I think it's so unique, and how you're going to approach your partner, I'm hoping, you know, this is where like, having developed really good communication skills comes so handy, you know, do you have the ability to create a space to have this conversation, having it outside of the bedroom, at least to start is usually very helpful, you know, lessen the potential stress of it. I think, too, I can't remember if we talked about this concept, but I talked about it to everyone. So probably, but like just talking about talking. This was introduced to me by therapists, just like, you know, you don't have to talk about the subject, talk about having the conversation, say, you know, I would like to have a conversation with you about changing something and how we're having sex. It's very exciting for me, and I would like to bring that to you house next Tuesday at six, you know, and you can help deescalate them, they can think about it, they can maybe start asking you a little questions before that Tuesday time. And so people can come together to talk about this in a much more open headspace. And I think also bringing it to them as what your interests are, what you're hoping to get out of it, emphasizing your desires, your hopes for pleasure, how this is just going to help you because I think people are afraid of the lack aspect of it, that you're trying to fix something or replace something. And if you can attend to that through your initial conversation that's going to really help deescalate those stressors to around that. So right, being aware, being conscious being you know, as caring as you can beat your partner understand that they might have, you know, a disc discomfortable reaction to it at first. But, you know, to go along with that, you can also propose, you know, a willingness window, say, I would just like to try it for like five minutes, the next time we have sex, would that be okay? And then we can talk about it afterwards, you know, very low stakes, hopefully, for people.

Joli Hamilton
I like that suggestion. It's a good one, when I'm when we talk to each other about new things, because there are still new things, don't worry, you're not going to run out. We've been at this a while you're not going to run out. When we talk about new things, that what you just mentioned about there, there being the concern that someone might perceive an interest in something new as a lack, like now, does this mean that something's missing, or I'm not good enough. And I hear that come up a lot with cisgender men, in particular, some real concerns, and actually in both directions, both they're they're sharing that they want something else more new different, and also receiving that that information. And I think that that speaks to a little bit of the the way that guys in like a really general sense are socialized and how they have been. What would you say to somebody who's really nervous about this, this aspect, this this perceived lack?

Beth Hankes
Yeah, I think, you know, as with everything is one of those things that you sort of have to investigate for yourself, right? Where's it coming from? What is that thing? How can you attend to it outside of maybe this initial situation, right? Like, if it's a perceived lack in your own physical ability? Can you have that conversation with your partner? Can you have that conversation with yourself? Or is there something you could do for yourself? That's not in this proposal that would make you feel the way you want to feel right? Like, this doesn't have to be a one way street. You know, it's not just like, your partner's going to use a sex toy and you are over here, you know, like, this can be a mutual thing, hopefully then bringing you something can allow you to say, oh, you know, what, actually, I've also been thinking about this thing and ever brought it to you or, you know, I have this concern. I just want to hear from you. Does this feel right to, you know, sort of appear to you? Because, you know, I think getting lost in ourselves is the thing that really hurts us a lot of times I Not bringing that honestly to people and just having a way on those can be so tough. And hopefully, if you're in a loving partnership, it's going to be met really well.

Joli Hamilton
Yeah, I that makes me think about envy and jealousy. And, you know, people ask me all the time if you can be like, jealous of a sex toy, because my research is in jealousy. And I'm like, Well, ah, sort of the answer is kind of because jealousy is a triangular problem that involves losing the your connection to your beloved, your fear of that loss. Now, you're not going to lose the connection to your beloved to a dildo because they're an inanimate object. However, the imagination can run away with things. And an imaginal fear is just as real for your psyche, as any real human. So when we're dealing with somebody who's nervous about lack, that's where I go is how do we keep your imagination from running away with you? How do we, why don't we help you deescalate that for yourself, and your partner? And the simplest way I know is to ask for reassurance.

Ken Hamilton
It's it's so simple, and remarkably, it feels like a cheat, right?

Beth Hankes
Oh, that's all I got in spirit.

Joli Hamilton
Right? Yeah. So if you're afraid so I could use us as an example. If, if you are wanting access to a phallic shape, and you're not seeing somebody who happens to have one in their pants, and you want me to play that with you, but you're afraid that I might have feelings about being not enough or whatever, right? So if I'm going to wear a strap on or whatever, great, it is totally cool with me, if you just say, I'm going to ask you for something. And before I asked you, I'm going to ask you for another thing, I'm going to ask you to be calm and reassuring, because I'm really nervous about how this is gonna go. So frequently, I find we forget that we can ask people for the response that we want. We get to like, I need a cheerleader about this. Will you be my cheerleader? Yeah. Yeah, you get to have toy cheerleaders. We're now no more of that.

Beth Hankes
But it's my job to change my title on my business card. Yeah.

Joli Hamilton
So as we're wrapping up, do you have do you have some favorites these days?

Beth Hankes
Yes. And I wish I had them in front of me, because now I'm gonna remember from memory, and I just like Statscan, the entire school store. The what the best seller in the store is one called the dame palm, so it fits in the shape of your palm. It's a flexible body. And it's got rumbly vibrations, which means the vibrations are penetrating the skin tissue further, so you're getting more of a stimulating sensation. Nice. Such a nice toy. It's great for mobile owners. It's great between bodies, Volvo owners and their partners, you can grind against it. It's just the variety you can get out of it is amazing. So that I'm always a cheerleader for for sure. And like I'm one of the biggest cheerleaders for sex wedges. Like I just want everyone that was like switch. There's SO useful are so useful. Like, basically. Yeah, yeah. So it's basically its purpose mate. So I can imagine most people have probably had the experience of trying to prop themselves up with normal pillows, which compressed when you are on top of them, and you add body weight, they move around, they are unreliable, they're not going to be good partners with you and your sexual experiences. But the sex which is heavier, it's compressed foam. So it holds its shape, it holds where it is, especially if you have like a memory foam mattress, it gives you a flatter, more stable surface. Because I don't know about you, if you've tried a memory foam mattress, you just sink right into it. And you have no leverage.

Joli Hamilton
But that is 100% how it is and like how do I get a good pounding here? Wow, housing really

Beth Hankes
tough it also.

Joli Hamilton
Yeah, so that's more than just follow. What I need is a good pounding and

Ken Hamilton
integrate some chocolate to go with this marshmallow.

Joli Hamilton
Right. So yeah, and it's funny, I we're between houses right now as we renovate. And yeah, my sex wedges are all packed away. And I'm noticing so I'm gonna be I'm gonna be team sex, which for for sure. Because I didn't realize, right, sure, it's a simple object that can make and it makes an accessibility different. So as as our mobility changes through illness or just aging or whatever. It also just, it just makes things comfortable. Again, it's

Ken Hamilton
not even about what our 20 year old said when we were packing the pod

Joli Hamilton
Oh God. So we packed up our sex wedges. And I'm like, go by Yeah. What was that

Ken Hamilton
for? I said, it's for it's for positioning. And our 17 year old said You mean like yoga? Could be I like yoga. I didn't want to get into it

Joli Hamilton
with penetration or not. Yeah.

Ken Hamilton
And the thing is, it's one of those situations where I think they know what it is. And they're just seeing if I'm gonna say,

Joli Hamilton
push him a little bit. They didn't do that. Right, right. Never asked Mom a question you don't want the answer to ever

Beth Hankes
reasonable? Yes.

Ken Hamilton
I have an entirely gotten away from my nobody ever talks about sex upbringing. So

Joli Hamilton
growing up, 35 still growing up?

Beth Hankes
Was many of us, right? So,

Joli Hamilton
Beth, tell people, how they can find you how they can find Earth and salt? How can they get in touch?

Beth Hankes
Yeah, so our website's a great place to start. It's Earth and salt shop.com. There, you can get to the online store, you can book one on one appointments, you can also just sort of see what we're featuring our events, everything. And I think the best thing is honestly joining our newsletter. So that's how you're going to find out about products. That's how you're going to find out about our events, sales, anything that we're doing will go through the newsletter. So that's the best. Certainly, you can also follow us on Instagram also are Cinsault shop. Instagram was not a friendly place, unfortunately, to this type of topics. So it's a newsletter, definitely Instagram, we have fun there. And there's a lot I can do with it. But whether the information reaches you or not, is not always in my hands. So that's not as not as easy of a connection. So yeah, hopefully, hopefully join the newsletter. And that will be wonderful.

Joli Hamilton
Get on this newsletter get on it just we all need a little dose of erotic energy in our life, right? Like from time to time. And I actually I, I'm on lots of newsletters for exactly that to remind me of my own needs. So I'm not always giving, but I'm also receiving, and your work really speaks to me, I'm so thrilled to have had you on the show and can't wait to come up. And

Ken Hamilton
that'd be wonderful. Even though I just, you know, I just outed myself has not been very good at talking about sex, which is a shame. I we need more of these conversations and newsletters to bring to bring sex out of that silo into places where we can talk about it in a healthy way. So I'm very, very happy that that's the work that you're doing.

Beth Hankes
Thank you so much. Appreciate it.

Joli Hamilton
Thanks for joining us.

Beth Hankes
Thank you.

Ken Hamilton
Thanks so much.

Joli Hamilton
Thanks so much for tuning into this episode. I have one more thing to share with you. If you want to pop over to listen to joli.com. Let's just listen to Joli J au li.com. You can grab my top five relationship guides for free right now.

Ken Hamilton
Yeah, get the guides, they're easy to implement conversations that will empower you to create the love you want. It's my

Joli Hamilton
mission to make everything talk about double sex, love losses and learns. Everything is talking about double.

Ken Hamilton
She managed to help me be able to talk about stuff that I once couldn't even imagine saying out loud. Now I speak openly with my lovers, my friend or family and you all on a podcast out loud. Relationship work really can change everything.

Joli Hamilton
So when you're feeling the rough edges when things aren't going the way you'd hoped. Remember relationships can be messy. And that's good news.