ACT Therapy for Non-monogamous People with guest expert Dr. River Farrell, PsyD

3 minute read

Exploring Non-Monogamy: Insights and Guidance from Episode 154 of the "Playing with Fire" Podcast

In the diverse landscape of relationships, non-monogamy often emerges wrapped in misconceptions and a dearth of informed research. Episode 154 of the "Playing with Fire" podcast, featuring Dr. River Farrell, a seasoned researcher and clinician, dives deep into the nuances of non-monogamous relationships and the vital role of research in understanding and supporting these dynamics.

Dr. Farrell, having returned to research after years of clinical practice, highlights the transformative impact of online platforms and social media on participant recruitment and the feedback process in studies. The discussion reveals the complexities of conducting independent research, especially on subjects outside the mainstream imagination.

A significant focus of the episode is on Dr. Farrell's current research which explores the intersections of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) and consensual non-monogamy. Initially aiming to correlate relationship satisfaction with psychological flexibility and compersion—the joy one feels from their partner's happiness in other relationships—Dr. Farrell shares intriguing preliminary findings: these factors may not be as intertwined as hypothesized. This revelation points to the broader implication that relationship satisfaction in non-monogamous contexts might not necessitate compersion, challenging a common narrative within the community.

For therapists working with non-monogamous clients, this episode is particularly enlightening. Here are three tips for using ACT in therapy with non-monogamous clients:

1. Emphasize Values Over Judgments: ACT focuses on personal values rather than moral judgments. Therapists should encourage clients to define and express their own values related to non-monogamy, rather than imposing societal standards or personal biases.
2. Promote Psychological Flexibility: Help clients cultivate a stance of openness and curiosity toward their emotions and thoughts. This can be particularly useful in managing feelings like jealousy or insecurity that often arise in non-monogamous relationships.
3. Utilize Mindfulness Techniques: Teach clients mindfulness practices to manage intense emotions and stay present during challenging moments in their relationships. Mindfulness can help clients observe their reactions without judgment and decide on actions that align with their values.

Dr. Farrell’s journey back into research exemplifies a critical engagement with emerging relationship structures, advocating for a more inclusive and informed therapeutic approach.

Further, the episode serves as a call to action for more research in the field of non-monogamy to address the gaps in literature and practice. As non-monogamous arrangements become more visible, the need for evidence-based support and understanding becomes increasingly paramount.

For anyone navigating non-monogamous relationships or professionals seeking to support such clients, Episode 154 of "Playing with Fire" provides valuable insights and encourages a deeper understanding of the complexities involved. It's an invitation to listeners to engage with the content, reflect on the nuances of non-monogamous relationships, and consider the significant impact that informed research can have on practice and perception.

Listen to the full episode of Playing with Fire for a comprehensive exploration of non-monogamy, research challenges, and therapeutic approaches that honor diverse relationship structures.

By delving into these discussions, we not only expand our knowledge but also contribute to a more inclusive and understanding society where all forms of relationships can be recognized and respected.

Episode 154 Transcript

This transcript was auto-generated, and may contain some errors.

Joli Hamilton
Let's geek out together. What do you think? Yes, let's super geek. Um, we are joined by Dr River Farrell tonight on our particular episode that I I think is exciting.

Ken Hamilton
let's keep out oh yes let's super let's do it. Um, we are joined by Dr River Farrell tonight on our particular episode that I I think is excited for paint and because exciting.

Joli Hamilton
For me and I think it's exciting for anyone who is interested in what's the research. What's what's going on in the research behind the scenes. Yeah around Nominoggamy Jealousy compersion and for all clinicians of all different stripes who are trying to figure out how to approach.

Ken Hamilton
Anyone could interest in what's the Research. What's what's going on in the research behind the scenes around nomonoggamy jealousy conversion and for all clinicians of all different stripes who are trying to figure out how to approach. But noongamous Perspective. You know there are a lot of people who I hear from who listen to our podcasts who arelyical feel some type of trying be themselves. This is a great episode for you if that is you or if you are seeing a therapist.

Joli Hamilton
Non-monogamous perspective. You know there are a lot of people who I hear from who listen to our podcast who are working in a clinical field of some type and are trying to educate themselves. This is a great episode for you if that is you or if you are seeing a therapist.

Ken Hamilton
And they you are struggling with um, having to feel like they get it. The nomon monogamy thing is we a great episode to share with your therapist and for sure I loved listening to the 2 of you. Yeah geek out was awesome. So why don't you go ahead and and yes doctor liver.

Joli Hamilton
And they you are struggling with um, having them feel like they get the no monogamy thing. This would be a great episode to share with your therapist as well. I love listening to the 2 of you. Yeah geek out. It was awesome. So why don't you go ahead and introduce everybody because river's got a lot to say let's get right to it last do a do river fair was a nonbinary queer polyamorous clinic and psychologist who's been working in the field for over fifteen years they have specialized and working with gender and sexual minority clients.

Ken Hamilton
Let's let's do it. Dr. River Ferrell is a nonbinary queer polyamorous clinical psychologist who's been working in the field for over fifteen years they have specialized in working with gender and sexual minority clients utilizing acceptance and commitment therapy act I heard it's called.

Joli Hamilton
Utilizing acceptance and commitment therapy act like so that's it aren you there go are using that with yeah this is really exciting stuff. Let's dive right in.

Ken Hamilton
Currently, they are conducting research on using act with Cnm clients. This is really exciting stuff. Let's that right in.

Joli Hamilton
River thank you so much for joining us. I'm so I'm so excited to have this conversation. I feel like it's been like over a year in the making, just kind of percolating in the background as an idea. And now here you are.

River Farrell
Yeah, I'm, I'm excited to be here. I I'm excited about to talk about all my research about all the work that I'm doing. Just, I love your podcast in terms of getting more non monogamy education, especially from a psychology perspective and all that out into the community. So I'm really happy to be here and be involved. Yeah,

Joli Hamilton
I, you know, I've been thinking about what it means to be a researcher in this world, like more and more to be to be a researcher right now. So would you just set us up and let us know like, what is what is your? What is your role in the in the world of non monogamy research? I mean, it's bigger than just that. Tell us a little bit about what you do. Exactly.

River Farrell
So it's interesting. This is actually the first year I've gone back into doing actual research studies after being a clinician for about 15 years. Because there were gaps in the literature that I saw. And I was like, but nobody's done studies on this. And I want to go do studies on this. And so getting back in and getting my feet wet, it was really interesting to see how social media and online platforms have really changed some of the ways that we recruit participants, some of the ways we get participants, and some of the things people say to you about your study, I was not prepared for people to come at me the way they did about Well, I didn't like this question. And you did this wrong. And because I am an independent researcher, I had to pay out of pocket for any compensation. And so what I could afford was I made a lottery and I had, for every 25 participants, there's a $25 gift card you entered for a chance to win. And the people who won on a random draw, got a $25 gift card instead of paying every person $1. And so there were people who were very mad that I was not 18 Everyone, all of my participants, and I'm like, Who? I'm not, I'm not like Procter and Gamble here like,

Ken Hamilton
and we are a feedback rich society these days. Yeah, yeah, for better

Joli Hamilton
or worse.

River Farrell
I'm trying to give back to the community by doing research and the community was really mad.

Joli Hamilton
Yeah, well, isn't this I'm finding as a researcher, it's, it's also that people have a particular way that they expect things to be done that seems to be based. A lot of times on either no data or one data point. Or just an idea, an idea of like, what should be it's hard to perform research. So thank you. It's, this isn't easy. Yeah,

River Farrell
I and I got my data back, which was great. Just last week, the week before last week, closed everything up, and we have the data to collect, and then it didn't even say what I thought it was gonna say,

Joli Hamilton
Oh, that. Well, that's fun. So that took a turn. Yeah. So your current research is on is it what how would you categorize it? So

River Farrell
I am looking at the intersection of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, and consensual non monogamy, using conversion as kind of my in. So my idea was that if conversion relationship satisfaction and something called psychological flexibility, which in Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, were all about psychological flexibility, being able to flexibly respond to your environment. And so it's like if these things are all correlated, I know that act will increase psychological flexibility through a myriad of studies that have been done on act, maybe then I could help increase the feelings of conversions and or relationship satisfaction in non monogamous situations, and that'd be great. Everybody loves some relationship satisfaction,

Joli Hamilton
preferably less than relationship satisfaction.

River Farrell
Unfortunately, the preliminary data says that, neither compared like, none of these things are actually related. Oh,

Joli Hamilton
you know, what, though? Can I just applaud you going out looking for a particular thing? Seeing that preliminary data, and sitting here and just owning it, saying it? That's uncomfortable, but that's exactly what research is research.

Ken Hamilton
Yeah,

River Farrell
that's great. So I have to figure out why it's not is it a is it a measure Are there? Is it something else happened? Or is it just that these things are not related? And if these things are not related, that means that you do not necessarily need to experience conversion in order to have healthy relationship satisfaction and non monogamy. And I think that finding in and of itself would be phenomenal. So I didn't say what I thought it said. But it said something. Yeah.

Joli Hamilton
And I mean, so let's just define our terms here. How are you defining conversion? How what, what basic definition are you using may not be basic might be pretty darn complex conversion

River Farrell
in my the operational definition we're using for conversion is the joy that you feel for your partner about their other partners and their other relationships? So in

Joli Hamilton
alignment with Flickr and two Ns? Yeah, okay. It's

River Farrell
we're using Flickr scale, and beautiful love that we use the commerce scale. To measure conversion. We used a modified version of the gay and lesbian relationship satisfaction scale for for relationship satisfaction, and then we used the psychological flexibility scale, I forget the acronym off the top of my head, but

Joli Hamilton
so when you say the joy you feel for your partner, experiencing joy with other partners experiencing relational, exuberance, whatever it is, right there, they're having a good time and you're having a good time, because they're having a good time. When you found that it wasn't the result you thought it was. I mean, I want to ask the the psychodynamic question, how did that make you feel? I mean, I'm very curious as a researcher, how did you feel? Well,

River Farrell
crap. Now what? That was, my first response is, well, crap. Now what, but as the person that I am one of my major character, I don't know characteristics, is that when faced with new information, I will change course.

Joli Hamilton
Yeah. And so psychological flexibility.

River Farrell
I Yeah. I pretty much I have done all of the mental yoga there. I've mental yoga and myself into things in the past, but when faced with new information, I will change course. And so I sat down over a weekend and was mulling it over and I just thought to myself, Okay, if conversion and relationship satisfaction are not related, well, then you can have relationship satisfaction, without conversion, you can have conversion without relationship satisfaction, if these things if these two things are not related. And mind you, we have to take into consideration it could be a measurement error, it could be a lot of things. But if it is true that relationship satisfaction and conversion are not related, you don't need conversion, and this story that everyone is telling themselves about, you have to have to have to have conversion, in order to be successful. And non monogamy is false. Yeah. And I was like, that's an even bigger discovery. If, if that's what we found, if if it's not a measurement error, like, that's amazing. It's

Joli Hamilton
okay, I want to say first, this is the first you and I are talking because we haven't talked since your results came back. And this makes me very excited. I literally have the chills up and down my body because my research demonstrated just the idea that that nurturing conversion was like perhaps a a step you could take, but there was no I didn't I couldn't find any evidence I didn't set out to look for evidence, but I didn't see any evidence that conversion was even consistent across my dataset. Now it was a qualitative set. So there was no like I wasn't drawing conclusions from that but it aligns with my research to say yeah, it's a nice to have and some people really enjoy it. But it just doesn't seem to be necessary but the mainstream story and the and the desire to experience conversion and then worse, the pressure put on people especially when they're new to non monogamy. I feel like the longer you your non monogamous the more you come to realize like some of us have an easy time accessing Compersion some of us don't, but at that, that first couple years, there can be a lot of pressure from the broader community or from your partners. Like why aren't you come perspective

Ken Hamilton
is it speaks to the good Polly person Yeah.

River Farrell
Now one of the other things is we looked at the entirety of non monogamy not just polyamorous people. Yep. And so I'm not sure if again, the data just came in, I haven't sat down and examined it thoroughly yet. I'm wondering if there is a difference between people who identify as polyamorous versus swingers versus open relationships. And if the style of non monogamy that someone is engaging in it influences whether or not relationship satisfaction is influencing conversion, or conversion is influencing relationship satisfaction, which also that slip of the tongue just also said a thing, by the way things are correlated, that doesn't imply causation. So it could be that conversion causes relationship satisfaction, but it couldn't be the relationship satisfaction causes conversion. So like, that's another I think, this puzzle,

Joli Hamilton
that's a huge piece of the puzzle. Can You're a pretty what I would call if there is such a thing, a naturally compulsive person, a person who has really easy access to conversion, it just seems to just seems to exude right out of him. I don't know how he does it. Because that is not the case for me. But, but it also has seems to me that that has, it's benefited my clients who have experienced a lot of just general comparison, it just happens for them. Yeah, they tend to seem to describe their relationships as happy. And I can totally see why you would flip it around and say like, well, of course, you're having conversion. So you ever, but correlation is isn't directional. It just isn't. That's not how it works.

Ken Hamilton
And then there's specific situations. I mean, anecdotally, if, in moments, when our in my relationship satisfaction is lower, I feel less conversion around you and what you do, right? Because I might be mad at you. And I'm much less likely to be happy about your being happy when I'm at it. So yeah, it gets a lot of factors at play. So

Joli Hamilton
we're, what I'm hearing already is that there's exciting new research happening, I'm thrilled that you're doing it. What, like what inspires you to do the hard work? I mean, like this is, this is not an easy thing to just to conceptualize studies, let alone to actually do the work of data collection, and analysis, and then the writing. What, what hand motivates you to this?

River Farrell
Um, special interest? Like, part of it comes down to I have in my self journey, realize that I am definitely neurodivergent. I don't really question that anymore. I have always found human beings to be both fascinating and terrifying. And that the more I studied and understood these fascinating creatures that we are, the easier time I would have moving through the world and understanding what is going on. Around me so by doing this research, I will have more data to understand what is going on around me, and hopefully help other people understand because I am not the only nerd divergent person in the world by a longshot. And I'm not the only neurodiverse version person doing non monogamy or identifying as non monogamous, depending on if you take the orientation view or the lifestyle view. And that's a whole nother conversation. But yeah, right. So we need the information. It helps us navigate the world.

Joli Hamilton
I think you and I exchanged a meme a while back about like, yeah, best case scenario. Let's ask a nerd, a neurodivergent person who's really really interested in a subject or less let's ask a PhD who spent their life studying a subject. Why not ask both. I'm thrilled you're doing this research. As a person who's spent all this time investing themselves in understanding humaneness, to now have this special interest that is massively under studied, met, just dramatically under studied. And I love particularly that you are, you're looking at a particular form of therapeutic intervention, that well, when I went back and got my second master's degree boy, the Kool Aid was going around people are really They're loving, thriving in and using a CT of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy. So I'm appreciating that you're doing research that's so relevant to what clinicians right now are finding is actively working in their offices, because we need to need to have data to go with that. We need the data. So tell me why What draws you like, why what's the connection for you with AC T and non monogamy is do you see an alignment in your practice in your, in your personal experience?

River Farrell
So part of it is that act and most people don't say AC t this act.

Joli Hamilton
I just, I every time I say act I'm like, it feels so weird to me. I know. I know. It's what everybody says

River Farrell
oh the person there's somebody at school that I keep telling them like it. It's an acronym for a reason. One of the reasons this is funny is because acceptance when you hear the word acceptance people think wanting something when you accept it, you want it it's like accepting a gift you want that gift to you have accepted it. That's not what Acceptance and Commitment Therapy is about. It's more a willingness to have an interact with our thoughts and feelings, rather than trying to push them away. But willingness and commitment therapy doesn't make an acronym that makes a word. Here we are, you didn't

Joli Hamilton
think whacked was gonna go as well.

River Farrell
Of us see, if we think Commitment Therapy doesn't doesn't

Joli Hamilton
flow, it doesn't flow right off the tongue. But I like if we left the and and there because I think wax therapy would be very funny. That would be that would be I would be into it just for the acronym. Okay, but what are you what what drew you to act?

River Farrell
Okay, so I was originally a humanistic existential psychologist. And then I worked with children and adolescents. And having a an existential conversation with a 16 year old isn't something that is super productive, honestly, and it humanistic existential for all of the beauty that it has. For accepting all of humanity, and all of humanity's flaws, and the humaneness of the human condition doesn't give you a lot of things to do as a new clinician. Yeah, yeah. And so of course, I started looking at cognitive behavioral techniques, because those give you all kinds of things to do. So I was like, if I could take the framework of cognitive, humanistic, and incorporate some of these cognitive behavioral strategies, so that I can both help my clients who are struggling right now with research, informed care, and hold space for their humanity and the fullness of their experience. Like that would be a great link. And then, when I went to a week on training on act, I realized someone had been doing that literally, since I've been born. African Americans are the same age, like, very cute. So I was like, Steve Hayes has been trying to do this since I was born, that I don't have to reinvent the wheel. I just a couple of weeks ago, presented at APA, the American Psychological Associations division 32, which is the humanistic psychology division on how Acceptance and Commitment Therapy actually is a humanistic intervention.

Joli Hamilton
Round of applause, I love that you just like delivered this on a silver platter, thank you. Because

River Farrell
it incorporates this idea of context, which is all of the things that happen to a person, both inside the person and outside the person and how that is infinitely complex to a point where we can't necessarily understand all of it. And it means that each individual person is inherently individual, and worthy. And Act works with someone's values. One of the six core processes of Act is the values piece. And it explicitly states my values as a therapist don't matter in the therapy room. It is the person who is in front of me and their values that matter in the therapy room. And so when we take that to non monogamy, therapists who are practicing Act are already set up to not be placing their values on to the client. So a monogamous therapist, from an act perspective wouldn't be placing a value judgment on someone's non monogamy. I

Joli Hamilton
love this so much. Ken, do you remember the first time we sought therapeutic help? We were actually in a position seeking we're seeking family therapy. And we kept going to counselors, this is now 1413 1213 and 14 years ago, kept going and seeking out counselors and psychologists and struggling because they clearly didn't have an they didn't have a basis for setting their value system aside and fully embracing ours. And you can imagine on you don't have to imagine And you've seen it the damage done then to our family system, which was even more tragic, it would have been bad enough if that was happening to us as adult individuals, but the damage done to our family system, because these children who are struggling to figure out okay, new family, blended family, whatever, whatever you want to call it, um, did not need to be told through the clinicians body language and verbiage that something was wrong with their family system. Yeah, um, obviously, I don't think it's, I say this out loud. I'm like, obviously, that's gonna screw some things up.

Ken Hamilton
It's not what we brought them to the therapy for. It was

Joli Hamilton
not. So I love that act, then this is an underlying premise. I would still imagine, though, and I'm curious, if you're finding, do clinicians need to then still make the leap to to enact this to make sure that that setting aside their personal values and embracing the client's values, when it comes to non monogamy, there's like, there's a real paradigm difference there that I find, like, it gets around the, it's a little slippery, I find some people aren't able to stay aware. The

River Farrell
parallel that I can draw is something like a cultural barrier, right? Where even if you are actively trying to understand someone else's culture, there are going to be so many things that you don't even know like you don't know things that are offensive, you don't know things that you don't know, because it's a whole different mindset, a whole different way of being. And so, obviously, most therapists are monogamous, and most therapists have internalized mono centric views that they would have to then try to actively set aside. And so even when they're trying, it will leak out. Because even when we're trying to be non monogamous in the beginning, it leaks out. I mean, it still leaks out of me every once in a while, because it's, it's just ingrained in all of us. Right. But the active attempt to hold this slippery idea of a different cultural framework. Yes. Nice.

Joli Hamilton
I appreciate that. I want to I had not planned to go here, but I think it's relevant. I think we should explore it for the especially for the clinicians, but also for people who are seeking help. I read a quote in Lucy feelings book transects. Lucy talks about how, you know, often we use curiosity as a really strong tool cure, like curiosity as a tool to make sure that we're entering into the client's worldview, make sure that we're entertaining a picture beyond what we can imagine. But the quote, I believe, is, Curiosity is not a morally neutral value, like it's not curiosity itself, can be challenging. And what I'm imagining is an act. There's this premise of I'm going to set aside my my values, and a clinician could accidentally then move into curiosity, but now be prying or like, or almost treating the client as a bit of a zoo animal, something to look at. And I don't know what better metaphor to use.

River Farrell
Again, it goes back to that idea of cultural competence. You can, there's this idea in the field that you and for most people have accepted that you cannot use your client. As the expert, you have to go out and educate yourself on a client's culture in order to effectively work with them. You can't just again, that morbid curiosity zoo animal like Juki, you can't do that. You can't do that. For culture. You can't do that for non monogamy. You can't do that. For LGBTQ culture. You can't do that for any piece of a human experience, which is completely foreign to you. You need to educate yourself on before you work with a client of that experience.

Joli Hamilton
Yeah. And that's exactly that was in my own last research paper was this this element of when people are seeking help for jealousy, jealousy in the non monogamous context, the clinician needs to understand the context. But often they enter into it without recognizing that it is a cultural competency area. Like there's a there's just a misunderstanding

River Farrell
here because monogamy tells you it's easy, just get rid of the third person, right? That's easy, right? You're jealous. Just get rid of the thing. You're jealous. That's fine. Just get rid of it. Just don't be friends with that person. Just don't have hang around that person. Just get rid of the thing that is causing the feeling and suddenly why jealousy is the only like one of the few things that you could just like avoid, like the whole the whole plan. avoidance which by the way, experiential avoidance is the anti thema of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, right? That is literally what we tell people not to do experiential avoidance trying to push away your thoughts push away your feelings, not feel them. So, the fact that our culture literally just says, yeah, that that one though, you could just totally do that,

Joli Hamilton
right? I mean, oh, boy, that just so many levels, it's happening that happens at a, like a child's level, we will tell children to just like, just don't be jealous. And then we we tell young teenagers, we model for them the idea that jealousy is bad, and Mickey, and then we grow up and in monogamy, and to non monogamy. There are there are plenty of people who experienced the idea of like, jealousy is bad, it is inherently bad, and therefore, we should try to cut it off. And it doesn't take. It doesn't take a lot to walk that out. And from my perspective as a union like, well, if we cut something off, it's gonna be like a Hydra. It's coming back with seven heads. But there is something very special about jealousy. We don't do this with anger. We don't do it with sadness. I don't I can't think of any one anywhere. Who would say just don't feel sad. I like I cannot imagine that sentence. I suppose there are people toxic positivity people, I don't even hang out with those people. But yeah, we know. They exist. They exist. People

River Farrell
who place a value judgment on feelings. And that's another thing that I've just since becoming an act therapist have shifted my language on there's no such thing as a good feeling and a bad feeling. Yeah, sorry. There just isn't there are pleasant ones. And there are unpleasant ones. But there are not good ones and bad ones. Because if something's bad,

Joli Hamilton
we get rid of it. Right? moral judgment, right? There's no moral judgment on a feeling. And I would push that even further because the, you know, even in the APA is definition of jealousy. They call it a negative emotion. That leap from negative to bad is real tiny. It's real tiny. They don't say that about sadness. They don't say that about anger. And it it this speaks to me this this attachment that we have that somehow we should just get rid of jealousy, or and then we get to this idea that it's uninvolved like that there's something wrong with us if we feel it right. So now we start applying moral judgment to ourselves when jealousy literally evolved, like it's there for a reason. It's a feeling. It's, it's, I don't think humans are here doing stuff we didn't need at some point. So what do we do with that? How do we address that in ourselves? Especially if we're experiencing like a continual battering a barrage, from our peers, from our families, maybe from other partners, maybe even from a clinician in our life? Who is accidentally demonizing jealousy? Like, what can we do? Like, what would you suggest somebody do if? If somebody showed up and said, Yeah, I don't know. I think it's just bad. Everybody keeps telling me it's so bad that I feel this.

River Farrell
Well, I would ask them, why they're asking that question in the first place. Because if they truly believed that it was bad, and they believed everyone else, they wouldn't be asking me what to do. They would be asking me, helped me get rid of this. Yeah. Right. So there's already an opening of what like motivational interviewing people call the change, talk,

Joli Hamilton
right? Getting them to recognize, hey,

River Farrell
I don't think you've swallowed this pill. Maybe it's not too late to spit it out. But if somebody comes in and says to me, I don't want to be jealous anymore. I straight up tell them that's not a thing I can do. Yeah.

Joli Hamilton
Me too. And people are always expecting, I'm going to say I can I can fix it. I like, like, that's feeling we don't fix feelings. And we'd lose the intelligence that the feelings bringing us we lose the like, it's information for me, I'd lose access to that. It's so

River Farrell
interesting, I think part of especially Western culture when it comes to jealousy, part of the difficulty we have is its proximity to envy. Yeah. And he is one of the seven deadly sins and we're not allowed to be envious because that is that's the road to hell. And yeah, it's a lot easier to be jealous of someone of whom you're envious. Yeah,

Joli Hamilton
yeah. If you if that third part of the triangle, the jealousy triangle, if you are also envious of that person, which, if there's any element of comparison, now envy has entered the room Now we've got, I think of jealousy and envy as multiplicative, like. It's not just additive. Like now the problem has multiplied in its in its intensity level for most people. And now we add to it the fact that, yeah, oftentimes we try then to avoid it. But what I heard you say is, in Act, we would specifically not recommend that someone try to avoid jealousy in order to work with their jealousy.

River Farrell
But we don't avoid any feeling. That is experiential avoidance, we don't do that. Because what happens is, we can't actually get rid of feelings. No one has discovered a way up to this point in humanity to erase feelings to get get rid of feelings. And so what you end up with instead, is what Russ Harris calls your struggles, which were, first you have the feeling, and then you have feeling bad because you can't get rid of the feeling on top of feeling the feeling. And then maybe you have frustration that you feel bad that you have this feeling that you can't get rid of, and it just kind of snowballs into this big thing. Whereas, instead, act teaches us to be willing to have the original emotion. Yeah. So if instead of having jealousy, and then anger, that I can't get rid of it, and then frustration that I have anger and then all this, if I could just have the jealousy and not have the huge snowball? Yeah, I could probably free up some space to maybe make some better decisions, maybe even sit down and have a chat with my jealousy about why it's there and what it wants to tell me.

Joli Hamilton
Yeah, I'm a big fan of that like personifying jealousy. In fact, it has proven to me to be really helpful and pretty easy. Because jealousy is so used to being shoved into the shadows. It's so used to being we cut it off that if I can sit down and entertain it and have a conversation with my jealousy, really engage in dialogue with it. It's usually like, whoa, holy crap, someone's listening to me. Okay. And if you can't have a literal conversation, and some people I know, they get overwhelmed by the idea of talking to themselves, you can write to yourself, I mean, that's what journaling is you can you can write it out, you don't have to engage in a practice that feels uncomfortable to you. But I love the idea of just engaging with the jealousy as is, which also tends to mean that I need to do it in a timely fashion, I can't try to box it up and put it off for some later time, because the feeling happens when the feeling happens, and it's probably not going to be at a convenient moment, can deal with that, which like,

River Farrell
the six core processes of Act, one of those is mindfulness. So that we can observe our feelings as they're happening or thoughts as they're happening. Because you do need to deal with them in the moment that they are happening. And that thing you said about being willing to have the feeling as it is, there's a saying enact that tries to encompass all six of the processes and it includes the statement Am I willing to have this feeling as it is not, as it says it is, in service of my values, in order to lead a rich, full and meaningful life.

Joli Hamilton
It's a mouthful, but I appreciate that, like, it's one statement summing up a lot. Like L A.

River Farrell
It's actually longer than that, because again, we can't sum up six processes in one statement, but the core idea there of that willingness. And that personification piece, is what we would call diffusion. So if there's an act therapists listening now know that diffusion is separating oneself from one's thoughts in order to evaluate those thoughts and the contents of those thoughts without becoming activated by them. Yeah.

Joli Hamilton
So whatever operational operationalization you go through in your processes, if there is a moment of differentiation between my like, the the thing that is me that's that's doing all of this thinking, and all the mess that's going on in there that's happening. It whatever process you're using whatever name you're calling it, I'm into it, because in that moment, you create space for there to be something other than your well worn path. Like that. Just like whatever my habitual reaction has been whatever the story has been Here's some space now. So

Ken Hamilton
all of this is bringing me back to what? So you said that a core piece of this is that the the clinicians values, don't enter the therapy room. And I'm hearing like this, how valuable that same, that same idea is in just interacting with people of other like, philosophies of any kind. So I'm wondering, that's a great thing to say, What? What techniques and strategies? Do you recommend to a therapist, for example, who's going to go in and talk to somebody for identifying how their values are impacting them? And then dealing with that?

River Farrell
So if I'm understanding the question, it's strategies for a clinician who knows they're going in to meet a client who has different values than they have? Yeah, and how to keep that separated? Yeah,

Ken Hamilton
how to stay aware of it and keep it from entering the room?

River Farrell
Well, there's a lot of doing act on oneself, there are it's one of those things you live, so that you can teach so that you can do. Remaining mindful of one's biases, exploring your biases, knowing you're going to have them before you go into the room is the first step. Yeah. And then having good diffusion strategies for when thoughts like judgmental thoughts pop up, they don't have to come out of your mouth. Luckily, most therapists I'm sure, not all, because not all of anyone is anything, but most therapists are good at not just saying everything that comes in their brain at any given moment. So being able to tuck some of that away and save it for after session in order to evaluate whether or not it was bias or what where it was coming from. And really keeping the session focused on the client and on where they want to go. And something I frequently asked in my sessions is, is this thing you're doing getting you where you want to go? Like, one of the values that is pretty ubiquitous in humans is connection. And so the value of meaningful connections with other people is something that a lot of people struggle with. And so I asked them is doing this thing, getting you to where you want to go getting you to the value of connection.

Joli Hamilton
And they'll go about that through different paths. But because you're reducing it down to this, like, alright, is it good? Is it taking them in the direction of connection, which they've already stated, they've already made clear is a value for them. You're returning them to a meaning making process that you don't need to agree with their method for getting there you have, there's no need, you can stay focused. As long

River Farrell
as nobody's getting hurt. It doesn't matter to me how you get to your value. Yeah.

Ken Hamilton
But then and then identifying your values is a pretty important first step in that of knowing like, because one of the things that I picture, like, sure I walk in the room. Okay, what am I bringing into the room? If I don't know it's gonna be really hard to like, I mean, not think something's judgmental. And then I look at it after I'm like, oh, no, I see it now. Now it's too late. So get doing that work. Like what you said about doing act on yourself. Yep. Okay, there we go. That those kinds of practices and if I

River Farrell
have my book nope, do not have it here there's actually a workbook for clinicians on doing it Acceptance and Commitment Therapy on yourself. And there are groups

Joli Hamilton
for that. I so I'm loving the direction that this conversation took because we actually have there are a lot of clinicians who listen to this podcast and I know because I chat with them via email quite a lot. It's fascinating to me how frequently they are what they're doing listening to playing with fire is hey, I have I have clients who are coming in and they're dealing with jealousy or they're dealing with coming out as something other than monogamous nude they don't even have words for it and they're doing the work they're they're trying to educate themselves on what is this it because non monogamy is just so big. So I like to just, you know, circle back to doing the research is important and On a clinical level, but doing the research that will then support the clinicians to actually be able to approach these problems if there are clinicians listening, thinking, oh, yeah, there's just a lot more to learn than it feels possible to learn about this topic. That makes sense to me. Because you said earlier river, you know, we're all in this, we're in this monogamous zeitgeist, we're just in this water. So we have to keep unpacking it. And I would agree with you. I mean, I have to unpack my motto, mind over and over and over again. And the more time I spend with people who are inside that, the more I have to go back and then check again. So it makes sense to me that clinicians would be listening for lots of reasons one of them being to satisfy that sense of curiosity about how does this work for people, and how could you possibly seek connection if the only way they've ever sought connection is through monogamous exclusivity? Well, now we have to reimagine what would connection look like, if I'm not using exclusivity as the measure, or I'm not using longevity as the measure? It's, it's a, it's a mind boggling feat to take on. So I just I'm thinking about the fact that I know you train clinicians, like that's your job. And so doing that, like I imagine that you that you watch people having their special interests, and then the people who realize, Oh, I just have to, I'm gonna have to know about this, because we have a burgeoning population who are owning their non monogamous nature,

River Farrell
we really do. I work at a school graduate school where we have cohorts of 18. And so there's three years that are with us, and then they go off on internship for a year, four year program. And so many of them now know me as the non monogamous researcher, person. And so they'll ask me, I get questions all the time. So many of these students are having clients at their practicum sites who are non monogamous. What do I do? How do I handle this? What is best practices? And I'm like, well, APA doesn't have any best practices, yet. We haven't even gotten conversion in the dictionary.

Joli Hamilton
But, yeah, so some major problems, but also,

River Farrell
you know, here's some resources. Here's some things to read. I was really excited about an article that came out this last year by Gupta at all, it was a scoping review, you've probably yes, yes, scoping review that showed how many articles have been published in the last 10 years versus the last 40 years. And it's just so many people are out here owning their non monogamy coming out of closets, right? Like it is it is another constraining another closet to be in and trying to shift towards acceptance of alternatives to monogamy.

Joli Hamilton
Right, which, I mean, of course, is nothing new. It's like the non monogamy isn't the new thing, you know that I know that we like we, we know it's not new, but it is new to talk about it openly. Within the Western medical model, within, within this particular insurance driven, clinical setting, it is definitely still in the realm of new and so it's research like yours that makes a difference. And I know that it's I know that it's an immense amount of work. And I just want to say thank you, because it it makes a difference that it's happening. And that you're sitting with the data that comes back and taking the time to allow it to inform what will become the next piece of research then the next can build on that. It's so important. It means a lot to me. So thank you.

River Farrell
And thank you for the work that you do I work. I have students that are so excited and students are so full of life. And so we are working diligently on also jealousy research. I told you my students are trying to get together a jealousy scale because there's not really a super great one out there. No,

Joli Hamilton
there isn't I flat out saying the scale that's used in all of busses studies. I think it's just flat out bullshit. I don't i i draw no i no compunctions about that it is moto sis normative. It can't be used to study the populations that I want included in my jealousy studies. So thank goodness, thank goodness for the effort that your students are willing to put in to figure out so then how do we talk about jealousy? How do we talk about it? When we remove the idea that Mahna Mahna Mahna Oh norms are the basis for how we can template jealousy This is that is paradigm shifting work and I'm so grateful that people are just digging into this. If anyone's listening and is wondering what they should be on the lookout for, I'm just curious, where should they follow you? Where should they find you? Because you're out there in the world. But you're, you're you're a clinician now turns teacher educator, where should people follow you as your research starts really hitting the pavement here? Well,

River Farrell
so I am at the Michigan School of Psychology. And so that is their website has everybody's research on it that's been published and things like that. I try to get on tick tock sometimes. Being a very busy human being that doesn't happen as often as I would like. I have a professional Instagram that I have revived.

Joli Hamilton
It's in love that for you

River Farrell
are Ferrell sidey, because it is my degree.

Ken Hamilton
So we can, we can get that into the show notes,

Joli Hamilton
I have a secret mission to make sure that river is is cited and found because I remember when I was setting out to do some of my, the revisions for my latest study, reading the the chapters that you've written, and the work that you've been putting together was really helpful to me to remember that like, there are more people out here doing this work, we're not actually alone, the non monogamous people who are feeling like I am alone in this, you're not alone. Go follow River, listen to what work they're putting out. It's it makes a huge difference that we just remember that there are actually a lot of us out here, doing the work figuring out what happens next. My

River Farrell
poster will be in APA. So if there are clinicians listening, my students and I, our poster will be going to APA this year. And so check us out in the poster presentations. Fantastic.

Joli Hamilton
It's great gratulations I love that. So I'm so excited.

Ken Hamilton
Well, this has been great. It's been awesome. Listening to all the research talk and thinking about things at this level, looking at human interactions at this level is so important if we're going to change to whatever's next, and

Joli Hamilton
river because we want more people paying attention to act, I'm going to make sure that there's also some links and resources specifically for that. So if people are looking for clinicians who are taking that tactic seems like a pretty solid one to be looking for. If we're looking for somebody to work from a non monogamous perspective, that's one thing but also just to look for a clinician who's trained in a method that's underlying basis is just genuinely supportive of multiple viewpoints. So I'll make sure there's some some x resources linked in the show notes too. So people are getting good health. Thank you River. Thanks so much for being here for joining us for this conversation.

Ken Hamilton
Thanks so much.