Creating Conscious, Compassionate Open Relationships

~ 72 minutes ~

The following transcript was generated by AI, so enjoy the AI-flavored word choices and unconventional name spellings,

Ken Hamilton
Hello again.

Joli Hamilton
Hi. I'm so here we sit, continuing our hot guesting summer and not video recording ourselves because that's hard to do. Without our house around us we continue the journey of wandering amongst our backyard properties in intense. We're just we're itinerary intense or I did a podcast. It's very intense. Okay. Yeah, sorry.

Ken Hamilton
All right. So that's out there now.

Joli Hamilton
Okay. But hot, guesting summer's been amazing. Because I thought that this summer, originally, before there was all this building, I thought we would spend this summer creating some episodes that helped people understand that there are a lot of ways to do open relating, because we're shifting gears. And we're really focusing in what and helping people understand that opening your relationship doesn't have to look one way that there are so many ways to do that, including opening it in lots of ways and still maintaining exclusivity in some ways, right, which is a less commonly,

Ken Hamilton
but more creative solutions. And so I thought we'd be

Joli Hamilton
doing that ourselves. Yeah. And instead, well, we needed a little we needed some some help. So I reached out to my community, and got in touch with some of my favorite speakers. And Kate Laurie. Oh, I mean, yeah, we had lucked out this time. We did we do this summer has been filled with amazing guests. But right now, Kate's popping. And the and the reason why is because Kate recently released a book titled open deeply. And it's magnificent. Open deeply is a guide for building conscious, compassionate, open relationships. Right. So if you've been listening to our podcast, you probably thinking, isn't that the thing you talk about? Yeah, guess what, there are lots of us.

Ken Hamilton
There's lots of us. And there's so many, there's so much to talk about. So if you're

Joli Hamilton
feeling like the topics Ken and I talk about are off the wall, or it feels like you love our advice, but you feel like okay, but aren't I going to be lonely in my world? Yeah, there's actually a lot of us out there. There's a recent studies have shown that, you know, 5% of people at least, and those are just the ones who admit to it are in open relationships. 20% have tried it at some point. And really recently 33 to 44%, of millennial and Gen X generations are open to it are open to being open. So you're not alone. And there are resources being created for you right now.

Ken Hamilton
And this and yeah, so Kate, Laurie is one of those resources, she's created the resources and continues to create. And the conversation we had was, it was I it was great. It was so there was so much to it. And I found that thinking about hearing her talk about how she thinks about how to think about polyamory, and how to deal with it. Was was was was mind opening for me, like, Oh, here's another Yep. And here's somebody else's approach to it and so much to learn, right?

Joli Hamilton
i So Kate is specifically she's a licensed marriage and family therapist. And I think that that, that difference between so I'm a I'm a depth psychologist, and the MFT degree is a different, it's a different mode of working with the world. And I love that because all these different perspectives that people bring, if you go back and listen to more of the guesting episodes here, too, there are all of these different perspectives people bring. And that's because adults, you know, we just have these lives. And then we filter our new experiences through our past experiences more often than not. And that's great because it leads us to problem solve in different ways. It leads us to understand that variety really can be the most thriving option. So Kate's Kate's also been up to her elbows in people's relationships for a long time. She's seen the messes, and that's something else that I think can't be stressed highly enough. I say it, but let me say it again. polyamory is better than monogamy. And it's not one isn't neater than the other monogamy is not neater or cleaner or easier than polyamory. Relationships are messy. They really are. And sometimes we need outside help or an outside and outside support. But sometimes we also just need to hear other perspectives on how someone might approach a particular problem. And by doing that we break open the the logjam in our own mind that creates the stuckness that we feel like oh, I can't bring this topic up with my partner or I can't figure out how to negotiate She, this, these seemingly incompatible needs and desires. Often all we need is to hear a conversation like this. And remember that we're all out here. Doing this in different ways,

Ken Hamilton
relationships are messy, because we're messy each individually each in our own way. And when when we bump up against somebody else, or you know, lean up against somebody else and say, Here's my mess, and they say, Here's my mess. You got a mess. But it's the mess of connection. And so then say that again, yeah, right. It is the mess of connection. That's, it's not simple. When when you have tied yourself to somebody else, even just in a conversation, all of a sudden, your was more complicated.

Joli Hamilton
Yeah, thank goodness. Right? Yeah,

Ken Hamilton
I will get diversity, you get color, you get all these these things. And that's what I loved about this conversation was listening to Kate talk about things from her perspective, right. And all of a sudden, all of my perspectives, were a little bit different. Yeah, right.

Joli Hamilton
Now you have a new lens, a new way to look and frame things. And so I want to just stress to everyone, if you are opening, opening, open deeply Kate's book is one of my top three recommendations. It's generally, depending on where people are right now, I have three books that I recommend that people will start with. And it's it's one of my top reads. And that goes for even if you're not sure whether you're opening up or not, because bottom line, open relationship skills are just good relationship skills. Yeah, that's what they are. And and so whether you choose to open all the things, some of the things or whether you go on a wander through this adventure, and find out that monogamy is the right fit for you. Understanding how relationships and how different people do relationships, that, that just helps, that helps across the board. I still read books from a monogamous perspective. And they helped my relationship and vice versa is true. So I think it's just important to have said that and because I really do think that this is one of those bookshelf bookshelf books like this is one I bought copies for other people. I think it's a good one to have on your shelf. Go grab it. And before you do that, though, listen to this conversation. Yes. Hear what Kate's got to say. Kate Laurie is a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. She's a sex positive person who also is has this amazing set of specialties she's not non monogamous. She's got kink specialties, LGBTQ specialties, and sex worker friendly communities. She She is really she's deeply invested in sex positive therapy for people. I love that about her. She's also the author of open deeply a guide to building conscious, compassionate open relationships. She co hosts her own sex positive podcast opened deeply with Sunny Megatron, another fabulous human being. And Kate's been featured in Buzzfeed videos and has been guests on Playboy radio and many podcasts including sex with Dr. Jess, American sex slots and scholars and multi Amory. She's written for good vibrations and Hollywood magazine. And she's a frequent public speaker. Her private practice is in Encino. And really, this is a conversation.

Ken Hamilton
So this conversation, get her book,

Joli Hamilton
and then see how it applies to you. And let us know what you think. I think this one in particular might shift your perspective on some things here, you can also reach out to us you'll find us at Joli and Joli at Joli hamilton.com. Hi, Kate, thank you so much for joining us. It is genuinely a pleasure to talk to you I'm and I'm really excited to make sure that we talk to you about the book but but also I'm just excited to share space with you for a little while.

Kate Loree
Thank you so much. And I feel honored to come on you know, I mean, I think you're putting out wonderful information into the world. So I love to connect with anybody who is fighting to create a more sex positive shame free world and doing the good work especially these days when our culture is so suppressive

Joli Hamilton
who exactly So, Kevin, I have this podcast and one of the things that we do is we talk to guests who contribute they're contributing something to the field of relationships and sexuality but you are particularly spot on for our listenership because you are the author of open deeply. And so, I mean, I would love for you to just tell us right off the bat, tell us about the book and specifically why did you write it? Like why does it exist at all writing books have been cool lot of work. Yeah. And

Kate Loree
it took me five years to do it. I did, yeah. Which is a whole thing that I could speak on. But there's many reasons why I wrote open deeply. One thing was just people would come into my practice. And they had already read the ethical slide, they'd already read opening up, my clients are super bright, and they still felt lost. And so I wrote a book that touched on the things that I heard on a loop inside and outside of my practice, I tried the vignettes are you know, conglomerations of different things I've heard from different people, rather than an example of a particular couple, or what have you. Um, so there was that aspect. And the other thing in how I wrote it, I did try and do a lot of vignettes, because what I saw in my practice is if I introduce a concept, a lot of times, we'll look I would see on the person's face with the scrunchy face, but you know, the little, little scrunching between the eyebrows, and as soon as I gave an example, then it was like, oh, so all through the book, I try and give examples of like, how things could go wrong, or how things can go better. And, you know, and try and make things really crystal clear. You know, also, so I'm 53, I started being non monogamous about in 2003 ish. So you know, almost 20 years. Back then, when I first switched, I had had an 11 year monogamous relationship, and I've switched to having a non monogamous relationship. And I wasn't even aware of the ethical slide that was put out, I think, in 98. And so a lot of our journey, we had to learn the hard way. And so I also wrote the book, to try and create a model that would help people avoid that, so they don't have to learn the hard way. You know, a third, you know, another thing that I've seen is that a lot of books don't address the fact that a lot of times people are coming into a relationship model, whether it's non monogamous or monogamous. And there's other things going on, like maybe they're struggling with a mood disorder, or maybe they're dating a narcissist, you know, and like, so I tried to address those things, like, how does that impact your non monogamous journey? And then, I mean, finally, I know I'm being long winded. I apologize. No, it's good. It's good. And finally, you know, when when Polly secure came out, in the middle of me writing my book, I was like, oh, no, you know, because it's, because it's, it's about a lot of the things I touch on, but when I read it, I was I actually had the opposite reaction on the wire. I'm like, Oh, this is actually like the gateway book that really just feeds into my book. Yes. So

Joli Hamilton
that is completely how I read them, and how I actually suggest them to people as well. That's when I'm when I'm sort of prescribing them as, as an order of operations, I find that you picked up in many places, and you went deeply into some things that I don't think anybody else has really addressed things like dating a narcissist, I haven't seen anybody take that on. So kudos to you for being willing to go there. Like go into the those shadowy areas, because we're complicated people. Like,

Ken Hamilton
yeah, and nobody's doing this in a vacuum. There's always stuff going on.

Kate Loree
Right? It's way more complicated than just being non monogamous. You know, and, and, you know, and you can read my book, unto itself, it could be your first book to read, but you know, it does do a really big, deep dive. And, you know, in talking about narcissism, that's another thing that I have a little bit of a beef with, is that a lot of times when educators are talking, it almost feels like they're assuming that you have a benevolent and kind partner, and then the information proceeds from there, when, you know, there's a lot of folks that are blessed with benevolent and kind partners. But then there's a lot of folks that have, you know, let's face it, the non non monogamy can be a narcissistic fuel source, you know? Yeah, like if you see Trump at a Trump fat rally his all those people that are revering him, you know, is his narcissistic supply source. And he's just it's like, you shoot not right, right. And so within on monogamy, the narcissistic supply could potentially be other amazing lovers and stuff. So they tend to choose an over giver that they can railroad, that kind of thing. And so, you know, to me, that was something that was important to address head on. And I think you know, it was kind of nice it opened by Rachel Krantz came out almost simultaneously with my book and again, her book and my book dovetail so nicely,

Joli Hamilton
right. Thank goodness more people are putting their stories into there because I one thing I really liked about yours is that you introduce your background like you're clear like this, you are both researcher A therapist instruments and and a person like you really humanize it and Rachel does the same thing. There's this depth of just a courageousness to say, it's not always neat and pretty. I mean, even my journey wasn't meeting pretty. And Ken and I talk about that I'm sure quite a bit, it was not nice or pretty. It's practically a miracle that we wound up together after how we started. And yet, in my experience, that's more frequently the case. And so writing a book that has this, all this shadowy stuff, all this stuff that we'd rather pretend like, Oh, everybody will just be, you know, well adjusted, able to self regulate, and, right, that's just not reality. And I don't think we should gate keep any kind of relationships to the point where we're like, oh, all those people don't deserve them. You know, when we, when we're like, all the people who have any other things going on? Oh, what is that for our world? That doesn't make any sense? Well, I don't want to be in relationship with a narcissist. I also don't want to be the kind of person who says that there's no recovery possible. From that, you know, that there's no functional relationship? It's not for me to decide.

Kate Loree
Yeah, well, I mean, you know, with narcissism, especially when you're dealing with kind of a baby narcissist, or someone who's not diagnoseable Yeah, you there is room to make that a healthier relationship when the more extreme with the narcissism as you know, it becomes ego syntonic Like, they don't think there's anything wrong with them, and they're never gonna go to therapy unless they feel like they can hoodwink that therapist into being complicit with their agenda, you know, but with folks that are more baby narcissists, or just have symptoms and bring Yeah,

Joli Hamilton
right, especially just that like tinge or the or the narcissistically wounded, they're just like, like, they're, they have that tinge, and then I just find it if we never talk about it, we don't want to differentiate. It's not all it's not just like, oh, we check a box and put people over into that into that box or this box, which is really nice and clinical diagnosis. dehumanizing,

Ken Hamilton
yeah,

Joli Hamilton
right. Yeah,

Kate Loree
we want to avoid that. And certainly everybody's accusing everybody of gaslighting right now. And like, all of this, all this stuff, and you know, some people might think when they hear me talking about this, you know, like, if a monogamous person was listening, they might go, Well see, this is exactly what I thought these people are struggling. And it's just like, all the stuff that I talked about in in open deeply regarding non monogamy. I have also seen within monogamous relationships, and oh, by the way, a lot of that stuff can just run dormant in a monogamous relationship, because it doesn't poke at your attachment injury. So you can think that you're emotionally healthier than you are. Yeah, that's what I found. Yeah,

Joli Hamilton
that's what I found I was at both of us in our first marriages, both of us felt very clearly that we we had a handle on things, certain things that non monogamy exposed, and I don't even actually avoiding

Ken Hamilton
this situation, bring up those particular emotional confusions or whatever it may then yeah, sure, I can feel really good about how things are going. Because I've stayed away from all the things that cause trouble. But that means that I can't be in particular, it means that I don't grow into those places and find out what else there is of me. That's lying dormant because it's not just those emotional feelings. It's, it's parts of me that I just shut off because I can't use them here. Yeah, figure out what to do with them and how to work with them. And all of a sudden, there's more of me.

Kate Loree
110% Yeah. And and what's interesting is, you know, again, if someone monogamous was looking in, or even a therapist that looks through a monogamous lens, they might think, Okay, well, if you have borderline symptoms, you can't be non monogamous or, or certainly, if you have di, D, you can't be non monogamous. And, like with the DI, D, I mean, obviously, that is, in most cases, probably, that would be maybe too much, you know, they would have to have a very simple form of non monogamy. But honestly, one of the healthiest non monogamous relationships, I'm aware of, actually, one person has di D, and you would never think that that would be a thing, that that would be something that's possible. But this is a relationship that's gone on for decades with two other partners, you know, and

Joli Hamilton
I love that and I just love that you're having a conversation because I think so much of what's being written right now has it's, it's about the entry into and I often tend to be a person who's working with people who are leaving monogamy entering into non monogamy and you what you're talking about, just keeps the work going on and like deeper and deeper layers of, of how religion how you can look at relationships, how relationships can be your growth, your your path, I'm hearing I'm hearing you say that there's the potential for people to be in multiple relationships from really any place that they're starting. There. It doesn't it's not just One path. And it's not just the simplest, easiest to get along with folks, but also but it's going to be effort, there's going to be effortful.

Kate Loree
Right, you know, and you know, at the end of the day, I think there is certain things that certain, if we're creating a little cake batter that creates a better outcome. Again, as I talked about in the book, one of the things is compassion, like having compassion, not just for other other partners, but compassion for yourself, as soon as you are avoiding either compassion for others or yourself. Your non monogamous or any relationship model is probably not sustainable, or it's going to be damaging. Yeah,

Joli Hamilton
use Yeah, you say something right. About compassion that I thought was, you gave a vignette that I thought was particularly poignant. And in the vignette, one of the partners had had flubbed on on on following up with the agreements that they were supposed to be keeping, they were at a party, and they'd separated, and she forgot to do the check in. And then further in the thing that you said, I thought was just so spot on for any relationship was to remind the the other partner, the partner who was quote, unquote, wronged, because they were that they're going to mess up at some point too, and they're going to want compassion, they're going to want their partner to be able to hold some compassion for them. Because I think seeking perfection is just so common in non monogamy, or at least I see a lot of people seeking perfection, where there is none. I would love to hear you say a little bit about, about compassion, like, take that deeper, what can be what do you see people people's opportunity there?

Kate Loree
Yeah, well, I mean, like with that example, so often, you know, when one person feels wronged, and maybe they're new at non monogamy, so often they get on their high horse, and they want to have the rage, and they want to, like, you know, really go off on their partner. And, you know, I do slow down and slow them down and say, I can promise you that you're going to mess up at some point. Yeah, and I can promise you that you would, you would want that compassion in that moment. So really think this through in terms of how you want to engage right now. Because it will impact your future. Because if you are just even when your partner is trying to make amends, and you are just coming at them with rage down the road, when you mess up, and you ask for compassion, they're going to be like, now why should I do that? Given how you responded to me when I had a mess up a while back, you know, so you have to be really careful with that. I find that a lot of times people don't have compassion for themselves, you know, they have this whole they've listened to a lot of information about say polyamory and they've gotten this idea of how it should be done. Like you know, almost like as if non monogamy is dogmatic. Which is strange because I mean, here we are, we a lot of us we've switched to non monogamy because we do love freedom carefree fun and adventure. And yet, you know, and we want to steer away from monogamy that can be can feel so controlling, right, and then so many factions of non monogamy has become just as dogmatic. Right, you know, and and so you have these people that are that are in my office in the shame spiral saying, you know, I'm not good at polyamory or whatever. And then in this complete, like, no self compassion. Yeah,

Joli Hamilton
yeah, that came up in my, in my so I do academic research on jealousy specifically. And when I interview polyamorous people, one of the most common themes that popped up was this myth of the good poly person. And that was the biggest block that turned up in that particular study, the biggest block to really working productively with jealousy was that they if a person had internalized the idea that good poly people weren't jealous, that became the biggest block. So it was the dogmatic behavior, not the actual jealousy once they broke through that myth of, oh, actually, I can be jealous, and I can be good at this. I can practice good habits. I can I can learn how to work with this. As soon as they could break that myth. There was then something to do, but some of them reported, you know, years of really struggling with that, that good poly person they were supposed to be, especially if it was enhanced by say having one particular partner or one particular guru that they were following who was sort of outlining, like, what polyamory or what open relating is. Eight, right? I'm wondering if you have anything to say about like, how we talk about this as a as a larger community and

Kate Loree
Well, I think there's people that you can talk to and then People who you can't talk to, because they don't want to hear it, you know, like, there are some people that are just down the dogmatic rabbit hole, and they don't want to hear anything that's outside of their bubble. But then there's plenty of people. I've had so many people in my private practice, I want to join the Facebook, like Facebook, non monogamous groups, but when I do, like, if you say something that's outside of the dogma, you get attacked. Yeah, you know, I've had people say that about, not all not all groups like that. But some groups, that's what some of my clients are rewarded is not feeling that they could be you know, and so I think it's kind of important to break down the dogma and say, you know, your non monogamy is custom made, there's, there's certainly we want it to be safe, sane, and consensual. We want it to be F, you know, kind and compassionate and ethical. But beyond that, you know, it should be custom made. And I guess it's an argument on what is ethical? Well, yeah, right.

Joli Hamilton
I feel like that's one of the bigger ongoing conversations is what exactly is right now, there's a really hot meme going around about, you know, just showering a new a new person with love every three months while you ghost everybody else over and over and over and over again, isn't actually ethical. And I think that's, I think, ready for polyamory. I can't Elora Boyle, I think she's the one that that wrote that down. And it's popping around. I'm like, Great example. To me, that one's a clear, that's not ethical. But the the trying to determine what ethical is actually becomes one of the dogmatic points that then people get stuck on to. So it's, I feel like we can get, we can get trapped in the Indus trying to describe what we're doing so much that we forget to actually just be in our relationships, or at least I have found that,

Kate Loree
you know, I think doing non monogamy well really does take a heavy dose of kind of Buddhist philosophy and non attachment, you know, and allowing, realizing that metaphorically, if we did a metaphor of life, it's like standing in front of a stream that everything's going by, you know, the beautiful fishy, the kind of ugly tin can and we don't get to keep any of it, including our own life. And so the partners that we have, we cannot control them. But with that being said, you know, I think part of the problem is within non monogamy is that we do have that love language of carefree Fun, Freedom and adventure. You know, a lot of us. And so, the last thing, if you want to piss off a non monogamous people, a live person, a lot of it is, you know, like, one way to piss off a non monogamous person is to make them feel controlled in any way, right? But, right. But at the end of the day, if you think about a healthy relationship, if we boil it down to a couple of people who are non monogamous, and there's other lovers out here, but let's just talk about them for simplicity. What I see is healthy is you know, that this person has their friends and their life and their independence. And this person have has their friends and their life and their independence. But then there's the Couplehood, the Venn diagram, crossover, and that needs to be healthy, too. So in other words, were balancing freedom with self care. And sometimes people fear that if I list any kind of self care needs, that I'm being controlling, and often they might be accused of being controlling, it's really hard to find that balance between freedom and self care. And I think that's where a lot of the ethical arguments happen. Yeah.

Joli Hamilton
I, I really appreciate the way you just juxtapose freedom with self care versus freedom with security or stability. I know that you talk you talk beautifully about stability, but self care sort of goes beyond that into like, well, what would it what would care look like for you right now. And that's also it's more flexible to my mind. But I I wouldn't love you were reading Ken was reading the book and really got captured by the stability section, the when you're talking about creating stability, and I want you to ask your question,

Ken Hamilton
I'm just gonna say more about what you said in the book, The So from where I come from my particular how I enter into relationships, different people are looking for a different level of stability in their relationships. And I, I'm a fan of stability, generally speaking, and I also the freedom self care, stability, I feel like they're, they're all in there. So I like a little you know, like a little bit of freedom, a little bit of self care and, and the stability of saying, what are we doing, and how much do we talk about What we're doing. And so you had, you had a list of things that you felt was like the, the underpinnings of stability in a relationship. And maybe you could talk a little bit about that.

Kate Loree
Oh, let's see, I'm not quite sure what you're referencing right now. Okay, did I but I think you'd have to give me a little bit more.

Ken Hamilton
Well, let's see the,

Kate Loree
I mean, I can toss something out there, I know that I talked about stability through a lot of different lenses like to say someone who is anxious, like there are people that have anxiety that they, one of their self care needs is for their partner say, to tell them when they're going to come home from seeing another lover or something like that, to, to the person dating the anxious person very often they feel controlled, not very often the anxious person is they're not trying to be controlling, they're just trying to manage their anxiety. That is no joke. But you know, but that can be, you know, in both people have their points, right, you know, and that gets tricky to figure out how to balance that ethically. But on the side of the person with anxiety, if they don't know, kind of in a window of when their partner's coming home from a lover, they may literally have a panic attack, like, this is not a this is not them. How should I say being petty? or something? Yeah, no. And so for them, that is a self care ask? Right, you know, and so for them, that is, that is an anchor of stability, you know, for someone else they might not, you know, there's, you know, I talked about in the book how, or a rigid relationship model versus, you know, a more open fluid, flexible model is not, and neither model is inherently bad or good. It's, it's how it operates. You know, you know, I've known people that have been non monogamous for a long time with high emotional intelligence. And it's like, taking off the training wheels on the tricycle. You know, it's like, they, they can just see each other and read each other. And they don't need a whole bunch of rules, or relations. Well, rules is the wrong word. But relationship agreement

Joli Hamilton
state like, yeah, they, they can just sort of feel into the situations. And it's, I, I've seen those people too, they come come out. And it's almost like there's a naturalness to it. Yeah, but it's more of how they how the relationship was before too. So it's, it's like an easy transition. But not everybody has that. Right. And

Kate Loree
I've seen people that also, you know, say, Well, I deserve complete freedom. And so you know, what you do, but if you go off trying to have complete freedom, and your non monogamous triad or whatever, and people are not reading each other, and they're hurting each other left, right. And center, it can be quite the shitstorm. You know, that's the right way. Yeah. You know,

Joli Hamilton
you're reminding me of how so? When I think about non monogamy, my, my understanding of it is really, really broad, right? So I've been thinking about it for a long time. You've been thinking about this for a long time. You, you open the book, and pretty soon in the opening, you're talking about sort of welcoming people to the idea of the fluidity of the situation, that it's not just one thing, you once you have this big vocabulary, that fluidity can feel very safe. But I find that often at the beginning, when people are just opening or they're just even discovering what all this is, that fluidity can feel destabilizing. It can feel like, I just want to know the way and I'm curious, do you do you find that that eases over time? Or, you know, what it How does that show up in your practice when you're working with people more easily?

Kate Loree
Well, I think different people have different needs with a non monogamy some people, you know, just because of their background, maybe they are really emotionally intelligent, and so are their partners and they can go into non monogamy and literally pull it off in a very fluid situation with maybe you know, where maybe they have two other partners that they live in a house with or whatever, you know, but yeah, a lot of people including myself, when I went into non monogamy I had had an 11 year monogamous relationship. And then when I switched and had a 13 year relationship and marriage, we started out in the swing lifestyle. This was way back in 2003. You know, so yeah, I mean, back then. For a long time, we didn't even know that because, you know, the swing lifestyle has kind of a, at least at the time, they had a very strong rule about kind of like, no drama that extended to not talking about politics, no want to hear about your wonderful trip to Cancun, we do not want to hear about your grandmother's dying of cancer, you know, and so we literally had friends that were super kind and empathetic. But later on down the road, we found out that they couldn't have been any more politically opposed to

Joli Hamilton
art because it was very like boxed out every labrum no drama meant nothing that could cause any, like tension, even in the space. That's what I experienced to from that, like,

Kate Loree
well, at the parties, it was just like this is supposed to be, which was great. I was working at the time, at the time, because I was working at a clinic that was really great, very intense, and to just go to a non monogamous party that was just all joy and all happiness and wearing the costumes that you know that a lot of swing lifestyle, they have like a theme. So this time we're wearing rainbows, you know, it was it was it was a lot of fun. And you know, but and a lot of people have very rigid models, that and a lot of times it did work for them. I know couples that have been in the swing lifestyle for, you know, 20 years, and they've always had a pretty, I always joke that a lot of swing lifestyle people it's like, it's almost like going to an accountant convention, when you go to a hotel takeover. Like if you were to talk to everybody's rulebook, it'd be pretty much the same from person to person. Yeah. And that's not necessarily a negative thing. It's worked for a lot of folks in the swing lifestyle to know that, okay, we're sexually non monogamous, but we're romantically monogamous and all that. But then let's face it, also, a rigid rigid model can be completely toxic and controlling and emotionally abusive. So

Joli Hamilton
yeah, this word control is really catching my attention, because I'm thinking about the way we interpret control. That's what I'm hearing you say right now, it's like, it's, there's control, there's overtly controlling behavior, but then there's all the behavior that our partner so it was, that can absolutely feel controlling, depending on how we interpret it. Now you add a couple more partners, and that I see that turn into a really a big opportunity for any one person to feel like. Like they, they may feel like everybody's controlling them, especially if they're if they're not really practiced at stating what they need, or setting boundaries. And I was thinking about how you, you were talking about creating stability, but also I was thinking about, well, what about creating enough instability so that somebody can change and be different and like, that person who's used to being that one down position, and, and who keeps getting feeling controlled, all of a sudden, when they like, put their shoulders back, and they start asserting themselves, that changes the dynamic of not just one, not just one, one diagram, but often a lot of them, like everybody in a particular molecule, or whatever, everybody can feel impacted. Right, but the control, but control is the word that comes up the most frequently. For me, I hear people feeling controlled, but when I as a coach, and like outside of the situation, I think, is it controlling? Or do you feel controlled, because they're, they're not necessarily the same thing.

Kate Loree
And clearly, you know, just on this topic, within non monogamy, you know, a dissertation could be written a book could be written, several books could be written, you know, I think another thing to look at is we have a tendency to look in the microcosm of, of the people involved, but I think we have to look at the sociological level. You know, like, if you're a woman that grew up in a really misogynistic culture, where the misogyny that you experienced was not just with, maybe someone you dated, but it was just the air you breathe in and out, and then you escaped that. You may really, you know, break out in hives, if somebody tries to control you, if you have, like, consciously become realize that and you're breaking free from it. Same thing with with a lot of folks that have experienced racism, if they experienced racism, abuse from cops, you know, like they haven't gotten opportunities at work, blah, blah, blah, like the race, you know, and again, they felt like they were breathing in racism day in day out the chance that they will be really very hyper vigilant as soon as they feel controlled. Yeah. Is is understandable, for sure.

Joli Hamilton
Yeah. So now I'm thinking about the content, the contextualization and how taking into account, like, where each of us is, this might be one of the reasons why people are like, Oh, it's mostly talking. It's less sex and we're talking to do a relationship this way. And to some degree, that's true because we're taking into account To the contexts that each of us has come from, and the one we're creating now. It is complicated. And so that's making me think about how how the health theories can help some people make sense of it all. So I know you discuss attachment theory and how that like it can help us understand why we come into this shared context. And instead of having, like, Oh, good, we're all here together. And we all want it. We all we're all in. And it actually winds up being really messy. Would you talk a little bit about how you think of attachment theory impacting non monogamous relationships, you can take any direction you like.

Kate Loree
Okay, so I'll just kind of run through a few things, you know it in the book, I talk through the lens of the Diane Poole Heller model. And if you understand attachment styles, you know, just I think it's important for anyone listening to just know that even if you identify as a anxious ambivalent, or one of these attachment styles, you are not fixed in stone, like who you date will shift, you know, if you date someone more secure, you you'll probably shift to being more secure. And as you heal yourself across your life, the more you heal, the more you start to shift to being more secure. One thing to keep in mind is that non monogamy pokes at our attachment injuries, way more than monogamy does. So that is the blessing and the curse. And we've kind of talked about that already. A little bit, you know, it's like, you know, it's, it's a blessing, because it's an opportunity for growth, right? It's like, when we realize that we're being triggered, or that we are having some kind of uncomfortable feelings, we can go oh, okay, this is something that I thought was not worked through, but I'd maybe I have some stuff to work on with this. Um, you know, the kind of curse to it is that it can be painful at times, right? You know, I think, you know, going back to the example we started with, with, you know, the, the couple of minutes at the party, and one person isn't checking in enough or what have you. I think it's important. And this is another thing that I sometimes have a beef with, with the stuff that's out there. It's like when one person gets upset, a lot of times that advice is to go in and see what's going on with you. When really there may I think it's important to look on both sides, like what's going on with you, but has your partner done something that's disrespectful or something you know, where they could be where it could be something that's, that's better? A lot of times people think they're jealous. And when I say okay, let's unpack that. Because Jealousy is a complex emotion with all kinds of stuff inside that suitcase. What I find out is that it's not even jealousy, and it's not anything that could be jealousy. It's disrespect. Oh, no. Yep.

Joli Hamilton
So okay, I love this, we have to go further into it, because I talk about jealousy all the time. But disrespect the way I understand it is, like, it's so easy for some people to miss it to MIT to miss that they're feeling disrespected. And I know you said this in the book that, like, if someone is missing, that they're feeling disrespected, how do you help them differentiate? Like, what's what even tips you off about whether they're feeling disrespected versus jealous? In a given situation?

Kate Loree
Yeah, well, you know, a lot of times they have already labeled it, they're like, I'm feeling jealous because of XY and Z, they've read enough non monogamous literature to already slap that label on it, like, okay, hold on, let's back the truck up. Okay, let's unpack that. Tell me what happened. And say, it's a client that I've been working with for a long time. And I know what some of their relationship agreements are, and they unpack the story, and they tell me the details. And like, you just told me like three different relationship agreements that were broken. And you just told me that on the heels of your partner breaking all those relationship agreements, they accuse you of being jealous and started gaslighting you rather than giving you compassion, like all of that is a package of just being disrespected. At the end of the day. It's so important to feel cherished within non monogamy. And, you know, yeah, and the opposite of cherishing your partner.

Joli Hamilton
Yeah, it's making me think about the way it feels to be in any relationship and realize that, that we're, we're just not being seen. We're just like, we're just not being seen. And a relationship agreement can make it more visible maybe, like, theoretically, your relationship agreement should make these these places where disrespect is coming, coming up more visible, but I find that a lot of people want to have a relationship agreement. They even think they have a relationship agreement and yet If push comes to shove, and they're sharing their story, and there's no agreement in place, like there's not only is there no written agreement, there's no agreement, they're not agreeing on what they agreed to, you know, in the room now, and so then we have to really unpack what exactly are we calling an agreement? Now? What like, at what point did you decide, this is what we agreed to? And this is where I think you recommend writing things down. And I do and the reason for for me is for self accountability, I want to be able to hold myself accountable for whatever it was I agreed to later because it is so easy late later on, to assume Goodwill for afford myself. So

Ken Hamilton
yeah, I do that. Yeah.

Kate Loree
I mean, it depends on it depends on the people involved. I mean, I again, if you are, you know, really emotionally intelligent person, and you're with partners, where it's very intuitive, and it feels easy to you, and you don't have these bumps happen hardly ever, despite not having the relationship model written down, and the agreements written down, then maybe you don't need to, but if you tend to, if one of your partner has a tendency to forget things, distort things, you know, yeah, that sort of thing, then it needs to be written down, you know, with, you know, just loose, you know, you can write it down with a date. And then any relationship model is, you know, it's kind of a harm reduction model, that's going to change over time. So you can write the date and where you have done little addendums, and stuff like that. This isn't something that's in concrete, but it allows if you're having a disagreement, you can go back and and go now, what did we say, you know, that kind of thing? Because you're right, what I've experienced the same thing, where it's, like, I'll say, is the relationship agreements clear? And one person is like, it's completely clear. And other versions, like it's completely unclear, you

Ken Hamilton
know, two of you have worked with a lot of people in relationships. And how much of this this difference that you're describing, one person's saying, this is clear one person saying it isn't? is have you how much have you dug into like, so? Why are you doing this? Like, what is it for you, that brings you to this kind of relationship, whether it's monogamous or non monogamous? What do you what are you showing up for? And therefore, what are you hoping to get from the other person? I'm asking, because the times when I think I trip over our agreements most often and miss things is when I have lost track of the difference between what I'm looking for. And what you're looking for. There has a lot of overlap. But then there's the places where we don't overlap. And I'm thinking, I'm just like, well, of course, we're doing this because I, you know, because I want, because we want more time doing this? No, that's me. And I forgot to separate us and say, This is what I want. What do you want?

Kate Loree
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Joli Hamilton
I Yeah. Do you? Do you see that? Do you see that coming up with your clients? I definitely do. I'm just curious.

Kate Loree
What you're describing. Some people call it hive mind, like assuming? Oh, yeah, you're kind of almost assuming that you're gonna have a hive mind with your partner. But if there's anything that distinguishes humans from animals is our storytelling. So, you know, I've just noticed, it happens all the time, where one person is saying, Well, this is what I want, and are telling some kind of story. And the other person is just reinterpreting the tour the story with their own interpretation. And so even when you get really operational sometimes where you're like, you know, I would like I would love it, if you would bring me 11 roses on a Friday at midnight, or whatever. Even when you really operationally defined something. Sometimes, if you have a partner that distorts things, or has a tendency to project things, or whatever, it can behoove you to say, you know, what did you just hear? Yeah, you know, or if you're somebody who you know, you have a partner, where sometimes you guys miss it, you know, are not on the same page and you express something, you can always be the one to say, What did you just hear? Yeah, no,

Joli Hamilton
inviting, like, just good relational hygiene at that point. I mean, I have teenagers, so I have to practice back for them all the time. What did you hear, because I know what I just spoke. But that doesn't mean it's what was communicated. And as soon as you add the telephone game to that, because if I'm talking to Ken, and then Ken needs to relay that to a partner who's not in the room. Now, we've also got the added problem that there's there's now an actual reinterpretation happening. So Getting getting clear involves Yeah, revisiting and asking for that clarity from from people.

Kate Loree
Yeah, and I remember years ago, Reid Mihalko talked about dating your species, you know. And so often I see clients, you know, they're so joyful that they found another non monogamous partner to date. And yet one person is very much looking to be in the swing lifestyle and have a whole bunch of lovers and this and that and go to parties every weekend. And this person just wants one other lover, and they want to be poly, or maybe they're thinking about living in a house with a whole bunch of other poly people raising a family. And even though they love each other, they want completely different lives, and they're constantly fighting. Right, you know, and so I think one choosing people that are as in alignment with you as possible is so is so key. And then also, you know, we, again, we can't control another person, we're all free agents, but I think we have a responsibility more than a monogamous person does to choose stable partners, because, you know, when we're single and we're, you know, like, just a single person that's operating in a monogamous way and just dating, it's like, you can choose, like, maybe to date somebody who is, you know, maybe kind of bitchy to you, but they're amazing lovers. So you're like, I'm gonna put up with a little bit of bitchiness, because the sex is amazing. Yep. If you do that with a non monogamy, you're getting the benefit of the great sex. But all your partners are getting the secondhand smoke of this person who's cruel.

Joli Hamilton
Yeah. Oh, such an important point. That that was one of my big lessons early on in the messy part when we really didn't know what we were doing. Because we didn't have language was, yeah, that choose carefully. And we because we had chosen to raise children together, we had to choose keeping in mind that we had a complex situation, off the bat every single time we choose a new lover every single time we choose to even open a dating profile again, that we're exposing a lot of people to our particular choice, and it does, I've had people phrase that as you know, oh, that sounds like a buzzkill. And I think it actually has made me really intentional. I get really, really, really clear as quickly as I can. Because I because I care about the other people I'm connected to. So in some ways, it's it's made me respect myself more, because I am taking into consideration everybody around me, which slows me down and slows my role a little bit. Yeah, just dive in. So which

Kate Loree
is which is hard. I mean, you know, let's face it with a non monogamy we have a tendency still to project our culture into our non monogamy, you know, in you know, some of that is projecting monogamy into our non monogamy at times, sometimes we, we are unconsciously doing that. But we also, you know, it's really hard not to impose what we've seen in movies like movies, say, you know, it can be like, you know, hot and heavy and but if you just choose the right person, it'll be organic and it'll work out well and and you don't really need to discuss things if you choose right, you know, they are movies really send a whole bunch of distorted ideas about love and relationships and still want to have that love at first sight kind of experience. It's fast and furious. And it's like, it usually doesn't bode well down the, on the chain. Right?

Ken Hamilton
Something I've noticed. So yeah, there's all these stories that if we took them as models and as accurate reflections of what could be. And that's just disasters waiting to happen. And in a lot of, in a lot of life, looking out at social media and such there's, there's similar things where things are, are they're they're candy coated, and they they look like well, things, things should be simpler and easier and more beautiful somehow. And my experience limited as it is of looking at how people are presenting non monogamy. Like intentionally the people were like, I want to talk about this. I haven't seen a lot of that I haven't seen a lot of the candy coating. They're like, this is hard. This requires, like attention and care of the people around me. And I've seen a lot of those messages, which I really like to see is I appreciate that, that you are another voice who has put out a book so that people can read directly what what's going on and what they could do and how, how this could be without telling them how it should be. For one thing, and I just think that's great. And thank you.

Kate Loree
Oh, you're welcome. And you know, the fact that in the past and within non monogamy. There was a lot cheerleaders kind of like you know, there was you know, now work kind of being more honest about the whole range of what non monogamy can be that can be amazing and joyous and fun, but it can also be really freakin hard and poke at all our attachment injuries. But there was a time where a lot of the people that were speaking on it were kind of waving their pom poms. Yes, they were talking about jealousy, but they were waving their pom poms. And again, it's like, you know, it's understandable given that, like, if you look at any group that is received a lot of bigotry, whether it's a particular race or a particular religious group, because the world is coming down on them, they're the only ones to weigh their pom poms. So sometimes they're they're slow to reveal the challenges that are going on. And I think, you know, within non monogamy, you know, I've seen the studies, I'm not sure what they would say now, but I've read studies where monogamous people were asked the question are non monogamous people, less hygenic than monogamous people, and a huge percentage of people said, yes, they're less hygenic. They're literally more dirty, physically. And so that really compels somebody to want to weigh their pom poms. But I think now it's been so out and everything that we're ready to talk about the whole range.

Joli Hamilton
Yeah. Oh, okay. That brings me to a race that I figured out when I wanted to ask you to close out the interview, which is, would you share with us something that has been really profoundly like a great learning moment for you and your own experience of trans especially being monogamous for a long time? And then not? What's been one of the big learns for you?

Kate Loree
Well, you know, I think, you know, as I said, I started being non monogamous in 2003. And from the time I was a, you know, my grandfather was head of the educational psych department of the University of Alabama. So it's, you know, psychology, I was being taught psychology from the time I was a little girl, I was being taught to track my body, on some level, from the time I was a little girl, but I never had really applied it to non monogamy. And so. So I was in my head a lot for a lot of reasons. You know, being 53 in the generation I grew up in, I grew up with watching Spock on Star Trek. Again, a lot of it is internal, internalized misogyny that says something like, man, logical, good, woman, emotional, bad. And so you know, you get that message that you are being inferior, if you're not up in your head, you know, and so I was so good at that, you know, and I also was an over giver. So I didn't want to be that controlling person. And so all of that was a cocktail that led me to being so good at being in my head, that even if I had a negative feeling coming up, it literally was suppressed in my body and emotionally before it even reached my consciousness. Yeah. And so when I took the course, through the trauma resiliency Institute, the trauma resiliency model, and really got back to thinking about tracking my body, I started to track my body, I started to use my mind, my body and my emotions from a grounded centered place as my full compass. And as soon as I started doing that, I really started to either consent or not consent to things from a honest place. I didn't know I was being dishonest to myself before, but I was. And so as soon as I started to really be honest, because I was really listening to my whole system. Then what I started asking for what I started to create and build completely shifted, and I literally felt like ah, backwards 10 years during that time. Wow,

Joli Hamilton
can have almost exactly the same response, like Ken used to describe when I

Ken Hamilton
first got right to the idolatry of Spock. Yeah, yeah, it's funny that you say that,

Joli Hamilton
and specifically that it was like, it's like it gives you back access to your some of your life force to to integrate this these parts that get disowned so easily when we're not really speaking our truth in our relationships.

Kate Loree
So it's a lot about patriarchy. And when please hear me when I say patriarchy, I'm not saying man bad or anything I love. I love all genders. I'm not saying that. But patriarchy does. You know it puts men in this tight little man box it puts women in this tight little woman box and it says there's no genders in between. So it's so claustrophobic it cuts us off from our total humanity. And when we decide to blow that shit up, and allow ourselves to have the full range of being you know, giving ourselves sexual range, creative range, you know, like men are told you you get to wear your Dockers and you get to wear the your little man suit. And if you wear anything beyond that, then you're some word that's deemed horrible within and patriarchy, right. Like when you blow that shit up and for the first time in your life, you get to be a full human.

Joli Hamilton
Right. And it sounds like your experience was that, to some degree non monogamy helped to build even though you already had a grounding in knowing yourself that it levelled that up again. And I yeah, I mean, not only am I glad for you, but I'm glad because I think that one more model of non monogamy can be one of the ways that we come to know who we are as a person, whether that winds up being a forever choice or even just an exploration. That doesn't isn't your forever choice. Like, it's up to you. But I'm really grateful to hear that story.

Kate Loree
Yeah, I mean, it's like what Megan on Amory podcast says she describes non monogamy as a spiritual journey. Right. And I think it can be if you're, you know, working on your emotional intelligence, you are choosing kind partners, and you're, you have a tribe that's compassionate to themselves and others.

Joli Hamilton
Thank you so much for that. So I know that our listeners are going to want to get a hold of your book. Absolutely. And we will link in the show notes. But would you tell everyone where to find your work out in the world?

Kate Loree
Yeah, so it's open deeply a guide to conscious compassionate open relationships, you can find it wherever books are sold. If you decide you want to get the paperback, please support our local bookstores out here in LA, you know, you got skylight books and, and you know, book Sue, there's quite a few. But you can get it in all three forms paperback, Kindle, and audible. So you know, and you can get it on Amazon, if that's the way you want to go. But there are a lot of lovely, independent bookstores where you can get it as well.

Joli Hamilton
I love that. Kate, thank you so much for writing the book for joining us today. I'm really really grateful for your work in the world and for for offering this resource because I really do think it speaks to what's possible if people really dig in and do the work and and enjoy it. You wrote a book that can be about enjoying doing the work of opening up and I really appreciate that. Thank you so much.

Kate Loree
Oh, well. Thank you for having me on. And thank you for doing the amazing work that the both of you are doing.

Ken Hamilton
Thank you so much for joining us.

Joli Hamilton
Yes. Awesome.