What does perimenopause do to our relationships?

~ 46 minutes ~

Have you ever asked your partners how they experience living in their bodies? Have you ever asked yourself what might be unique about your experience of your body? Life promises us all just one thing: change. One of the changes that DEFINITELY deserves more attention is perimenopause! We could have a million conversations about this, and still be surprised every time because there is so much we just don't talk about when it comes to the intricacies of being embodied beings. In this episode we are have the amazing Maraya Brown, a Yale and functional medicine trained nurse midwife, about how being in a body, particularly a body with changing levels of estrogen, affects our experience of the world and others' experience of us.

The following transcript was generated by AI, so enjoy the AI-flavored word choices and unconventional spellings of names,

Joli Hamilton
Hello, Maraya.

Maraya Brown
Hi.

Joli Hamilton
So nice to see you. And Hello and welcome. Yeah, this is so you encounter meeting for the first time, you and I have spoken before, I am thrilled to have you in front of our audience. Because you specialize in something that I think women need to know about. All humans need to know about that I just don't cover. It's not in my special specialty. But it is incredibly relevant to my work. So I consider you a just a huge asset to to have existing in the world and for my my audience, our audience to get to know that you exist. So thank you. Could we just open up and you tell us a little bit about who you are? I've they heard your bio, but who are you for real? Yeah,

Maraya Brown
yeah, sure. So, I am a midwife. I'm a mom. And I'm a CEO. And I'm also a wife. And, you know, I've been working, I left fortune 50 in 2003, I think it was, because I really realized my calling was to work with women in a deep way. And it was to be a doula, and then to be a midwife. And, you know, I've worked all over West Africa, Central America, in international health projects, and ended up at Yale, doing my kind of traditional training. And then also functional medicine trained. And now I'm all online. And so not necessarily showing up as a provider from the perspective of let me write you a prescription. But more i say that i midwife, women through chapters of change. And guess it's for women, but it's also for the men, if they if they're in heterosexual relationships, or they're in, they have brothers and fathers and I mean, it's men and women that I think really value from kind of opening up to the the different areas in which physiology impacts our well being and our passion and our hormones, and our energy and our mood and our weight and all the stuff.

Joli Hamilton
All the stuff. Here's the thing. I you know, so Ken and I were talking before this recording about should he come into the interview or not, because I've done a few without him. And sometimes it's, it's really nice to just have a you know, girl chat, right? I identify as woman and I was born a cisgender body, I labeled as female when I was born. So there's something very easel right about being in a conversation with you about hormones, and what to expect from our estrogen and all of that. However, I looked at Ken and I thought, yeah, I don't want this to be like fifth grade, when we separate the boys from the girls as if gender was now matters. And then just tell the girls, so you're gonna bleed for like a quarter of the rest of your life and just make sure no one knows about, especially if they have a penis. Let's not do that.

Maraya Brown
Yeah, I don't know about you, but many of the women in my space. The thing I hear most often is, well, there's so many things that I hear. But one of the things that's just come up recently, as we're talking about libido, and the shame and guilt that are associated with it is so many women come to me and say, I wish that there would have been more conversations, not just the superficial, kind of like takut behind. But can we actually really talk about this stuff. And I think for me, my upbringing was very non traditional. I had lots of different variations of parents, depending on what age growing up and my mother and stepfather were part of Rajneesh or the Osho movement. I don't know if you know much about it. But in Eastern Oregon, we spent time there in the summer and it was a very open sexual space and our home in Ashland, Oregon was known as the Rajneesh home, I'm doing little quotations by my head. And so there was always people coming through the home from all over Europe and India, and they were just there was this constant migration for me is from age four to six. And so I just I find that there's the I don't I don't necessarily relate to that. And so we just get to go let's let's talk about this. Take the guilt and shame away and what's really coming up for you. But then, of course, I think what we're talking about today is more physiology.

Ken Hamilton
Yeah, well, the idea of that, that your physiology, your knowledge of physiology and your supportive women is like the idea that as a man presenting critter, I could be involved in that conversation and should be and like,

Joli Hamilton
I would want to have you involved as a partner,

Ken Hamilton
I would you had this open experience. And I had a very traditional experience of middle school in the 70s. Of Yep, totally separated by this fictitious gender thingy. And, okay, we're going to tell you this group a bunch of stuff in this group a bunch of stuff, and you're not going to talk about it, because we put the taboos in place so that you won't talk about it. Now off you go. Good luck. And I hear you describing a more integrated experience. And, yeah, I just want to kind of start sneaking that into the rest of the world.

Maraya Brown
So there is Yeah, because it doesn't happen in school. I think the real education, at least in my experience happened at home based on the way that my parents talked about it. And as a women's health provider, you know, for 15 years, I ran the women's health and federally funded clinics, and I ran a Planned Parenthood and was attending birth, and hospital birthing center and homebirths. And also like the private practice functional medicine, where you've got 30 teas and a fountain in the waiting room. So that wide variety. And it was always striking to me how many women would come in and we'd be behind closed doors. And they would be asking me questions about things going on in their body. And what I was hearing is, we've lost our friends, our aunties, our mothers and our grandmothers to talk about this stuff. Like what? Why is it so surprising when all when vaginal dryness is is kicking in? Or the irritability is spiked during PMS? Or there's questions around why is my teenager? Why is her menstrual cycle not like clockwork and regular right away? And what do you mean, perimenopause can start at age 35. I don't even know what that is. Nobody talked about menopause with me. Yeah. And so it just feels like it's a conversation we deserve to have, amongst all of us, particularly for a woman who's in a relationship with a man to help him understand and prepare for when she's going into that what I consider, you know, fall week of a 28 day cycle, where she's going to feel very different in her body. And so as women can start being aware of that, and tracking and preparing for it physiologically, and emotionally, and socially, and shifting work, let's also have conversations in when we're if we're in relationships with men to help them also understand what's going on with us. Right, and, you know, did put on the Teflon suit. Right, let it all

Joli Hamilton
flow off of you. i You know, you are you jumped right into the deep end, I think here I had a conversation in DMS this morning, that I think is highly relevant to what we're talking about. Um, so you know, I talk about non monogamy all the time. So people are in various kinds of relationships. And to be clear, non monogamy I mean, just whatever expansive relationship people want. And one of the things that comes up is, if you're going to have multiple relationships, a lot of people get into that initially because they want to have multiple sexual relationships. Now, add to the party. The fact that your libido, your sexual inclinations, and your body's response to sexual stimuli is not going to be static over the course of your life. I am hearing from more and more people that you know what I hit 48 and I've been really cool with my poly sexuality. And now what is with this vaginal dryness? What is with like, it's like, I have armor up that I didn't have before I noticing trauma located in my pelvis awake. I'm just noticing it Where the hell did this come from? Yeah, yeah. So I'm excited. And I would love for you. Could you just start us with a little primer then

Maraya Brown
about Yeah, yeah. Let's, let's, let's go specifically into perimenopause. So, menopause is officially defined by when you've gone 12 months without a bleed. Okay, so the reason we bleed is because we've ovulated right. So as the as we stop ovulating, and we kind of move away from the fertility years and more into the years of being the crown and the elder in the community. We stop ovulating so we stopped bleeding, okay. Now the thing that is kind of striking is perimenopause that lead up the before the menopause can actually start as early as 35. And so average age of menopause is 51 and a half, but some women they continue to bleed till 55. So there's this potential like 20 year gap of I kind of think of it as two bookends meaning puberty and perimenopause. They're very similar hormonally. There's these big surges of estrogen and then and then drop in the menstrual cycle starts to get a little bit irregular and mood starts shifting and weight start shifting and then as a woman progresses deeper into perimenopause and the estrogen level is dropping and shifting to the type of estrogen, which I want to touch on. That's important. For some women, they have vaginal dryness, changes in libido, libido. Sleep diaper sleep changes. But also I think of it as a new fierceness. So the estrogen of for their fertility years is called Esther dial. That's the estrogen of multitasking. It's the estrogen I've got to, you know, attract a mate. I've got a baby on the hip soup on the stove. I'm talking on the phone, I'm able to be handling lots of things all at once. And my ovulation is happening often. And the robustness and the libido is very different. I want to have sex like a bunny, you know? Yep. And I remember that time.

Joli Hamilton
Right? Literally, I could do all the things I used to call it juggling chainsaws. Yeah, I got it. No problem. Right?

Maraya Brown
Right. And it makes sense physiologically, plus our DHEA is super high. So our stamina is strong. Our focus is strong or bring clarity, strong. And then as we start to progress closer into menopause, we switch over to a different estrogen, which is called es drone. The way that I remember it is it has o n e and one, we become much more single minded. So some women say am I having brain fog? Or is it just simply that we need to kind of shift the expectations of how we exist? We become more fierce, more unapologetic, more clear in our power. For some women, they have hot flashes or power surges. Yeah,

Joli Hamilton
yeah. That's a def just that reframing from a from a psychological perspective. Just reframing flash to a power is

Maraya Brown
Yeah. Really helpful. And then there's also this time where I there's a morning, we, whether you're wanting to have children or not, are you procreate it or not, there's still the morning of the loss of that chapter of of life. And that transition. Yeah. And our relationship with aging,

Joli Hamilton
right. Oh, gosh, right. Heavy, heavy stuff in this particular culture. And this particular image laden, just youth obsessed

Ken Hamilton
youth obsessed. Yeah, yes. Obsessed.

Joli Hamilton
Yeah. Which I mean, I love youth. It's wonderful. But I don't know about you, but I'll turn 46 This summer, and I love my 40s deeply, I look forward to my 50s. But every time I open Instagram, I am reminded that something is lost. And yeah, I appreciate that. You use the word mourning because I talk a lot about grief. Like not if when we don't make space to grieve what was even when we're happy about where we're, we've gone. There's a real missing element to our growth. Our developments are individuation.

Maraya Brown
Yeah. And so the analogy that I use is when you think about a caterpillar to the butterfly in the chrysalis that turns to Goo, goo, I love it, because this is when we go, yeah. And that goo how spectacular that we're taking on our new form. And we're trying on a few different rounds of how about these wings? And what is this gonna look like? And we've become kind of fierce. And then in our relationships. Maybe we're kind of like, Wait, today, but I didn't wait the next day, I don't want that anymore. And I want to relate in this way. And I want to do this job. But now I don't want to do this job anymore. And I think there's this shift of not being so much of the people pleaser, right actually standing for what we want.

Joli Hamilton
Everywhere I turn right now, women in my my cohort say, everywhere I turn people are like, Oh, the people pleasing. I'm done with it. And that includes in my bedroom. In my bed, I'm done with people pleasing, which means I need to learn how not to fake orgasms, I need to learn how to ask for what I want. And I need to let go of a lot of expectation. But it also means at least this is what I see on the psychology side of it is we have to learn how to be with that, that constantly changing desire and not have an expectation that libido is one thing that is just static and will and we should or can expect ourselves to want the same thing the same way. Yep. And then we need to be with our partners. And let them know that this is normal and it's not their fault, and it's not our fault. This is actually to be celebrated. So how do you work with people? What's your, your move? What how do you help them work with this

Maraya Brown
chain? Well, okay, from a physiological perspective, we have to really deeply care for our adrenals because as the ovaries start slowing down the production of those hormones, it's predominantly the adrenals that take over the brunt of the work. estrogen is also stored in adipose tissue, there's a lot of areas in our body that that fat, a lot of areas in our body that produce it. But really, it's the adrenals. And so helping women, I always say rest is not. necessary, rest is not earned, it's required, and a lot of Go. But really, truly, we do need to practice stress reduction and rest in the best way and stop the people pleasing and serving everybody and really focus on am I well hydrated, and am I feeding myself good food, and then my getting in my adaptogens every day, and caring for my adrenals so that the hormone production continues. For both men and women, adding in DHEA is lovely. In the US, you can get it over the counter. And it's a hormone precursor. So it turns into both estrogen and testosterone. And it decreases for all of us starting around age 30. And so and I think something very simple is just allow for lots of lubrication and get really playful with it as the physiology changes. So we can't we have to stop expecting that we're going to create all the lubrication like we did in our 20s Yeah, get some foam lube and play with it advantage and allow it. Take the pressure off when you're when you're having fun, and bring in lots of lube.

Joli Hamilton
Lots of lube. If anyone who's listening who is not currently sporting at least a couple of bottles lube everywhere, they might even consider having any sort of intimate fun. Go grab them right now I carry one of my purse for God's sakes. I have a beautiful Uber lube dispenser. That's like stainless and it's Yeah, everywhere I will about it.

Maraya Brown
For if you're sexually active and you're not needing condoms, I actually like oil bass. So even if you're just using a hobo oil, almond oil says music, go grab olive oil from the kitchen or make love in the kitchen and grab some olive oil but use a lot of it make it playful and fun.

Joli Hamilton
My favorite I actually have a wonderful recommendation if you aren't using condoms, and you can use an oil based go to Mr. butters. Mr. butters, has oh my gosh, this lubricant, I swear it changed everything about my experience of having a vulva. Because I've never been a lubricator it's just not my way I don't have like, I know how to get turned on, I know how to turn myself on. That's just not what my body does. And that's fine. But this loo was a game changer, it actually changed the kinds of sex I wanted to have. Because it's so nourishing and yummy. And I don't use it with all partners because sometimes I am using condoms, obviously. But with my partner that I am fluid bonded to, oh, it's just the best. It's actually better than, than anything. Like, I think people misunderstand that lube isn't just a an add on, it can actually be supportive. And that's

Maraya Brown
yeah, and fun. And it can taste good. And it can be played foul and rub it on your belly and rub it on your nipples and just allow it to be fun and, and take the pressure off. I think so many women they expect that they have to be the producer of all of it. Right and and allow the conversation to be taking Go ahead, I see what you're about to speak. So one of the

Ken Hamilton
things that I'm hearing in all of this is to acknowledge what's real and actual, and lean into it and make what's actually happening and going to happen fun versus me playing game trying to act acting as though the world world. I as a 55 year old man was was sort of told by the culture, which is that Yep, yeah. Vacation is the you know, that should be all these shoulds. And I hear you too. Just saying okay, yeah, but, but what's real is this. And so there are it's so do that. So live according to the what the reality versus the illusion.

Joli Hamilton
And I love that you said playfulness, because So Ken and I struggled with this at the beginning of our relationship because he he had never really use lube. It just hadn't. It's never entered his frame of reference around intimacy.

Ken Hamilton
I mean, the prudishness that was brought up and was an added element. Yeah, I see a lot but then even

Joli Hamilton
now it's a process of like, anything that I buy in order to make my sex life better, right? There's a layer that can be a layer of shame around it that is invisible to us. Because you're a grown up self I'm sure doesn't think that there's anything I mean, you brought you bought menstrual products for me without skipping a beat. Yeah, but it's You didn't even know how to go about selecting a loop. Right? And that's fine. So today that can change for anybody who's listening. It really just takes one conversation to change that. And I would say, Isn't it the same? I'm guessing you see this all the time? Isn't it the same with, like how we choose to nourish our bodies? Take in one conversation shift how you think about what would Yeah, for your body,

Maraya Brown
right? Yes. And so we also want to hydrate well, and eat lots of quality fats and oils and Asteron levels we are dropping, well, let's address those, you know. And so I'm not suggesting that everybody just go add a DHEA. But the the best test in my perspective on the marketplace is called the Dutch test. It looks through urine and saliva. And we can get a really nice look at a 24 hour cortisol curve and the hormones predominantly estrogen progesterone and testosterone but also how your body is metabolizing them and it says a lot about mood and focus and detoxification and propensity towards estrogen dependent cancers, as well as libido and weight. And you know, for some women, their testosterone might be normal, but based on the way in which it's metabolized down in the body, maybe it's it sends more down the cystic acne and extra hair on the face, and not so much around the increase in libido. So we get to address it from a physiological perspective. The other thing I wanted to mention in the lubrication conversation is reverie, are you familiar with reverie or not? I'm not what's that? So hyaluronic acid, a lot of us are

Joli Hamilton
face.

Maraya Brown
Patient there's a vaginal suppositories that are hyaluronic acid. So women, as the early signs of vaginal dryness are showing up reverie is the brand it's by bonafide and so it's just a vaginal suppository that then is adding hyaluronic acid into the vaginal canal. And now we're maintaining more hydration that way.

Joli Hamilton
Fascinating. So I find that interesting, because one of the things I wind up doing in my role as a sex educator is reminding people not to put stuff in there. You know, like, we hear people saying put sugar No, no, do not do not. I mean, I know. I know, you know our stuff. And it's, it can be so challenging. I think for people to know, what's a good idea what's not. So if, if in doubt, make sure that you the person you're relying on the information from really knows what they're talking about, because we don't want any pineapples. We don't want sugar anywhere near there. So

Maraya Brown
even no douching no douching douching. Right, everybody hears about the gut microbiome these days where 90% and bacteria only 10% human cells, the brain is the gut is the next brain. We also have a vaginal microbiome. And the vaginal canal is supposed to have an odor. It has all sorts of odors just like we we smell fine wine. And for those that like marijuana, they can smell the different terpenes and it's exciting and you smell hints of mushroom or Blackberry or black currant? Well, a woman's vaginal microbiome also has 1000s of different scent molecules. And, you know, I always say what? What man Have you ever heard who's offered sex a wait, babe, I wouldn't I think my balls might stink. Let me go take a shower first.

Joli Hamilton
It's um, it's the rare and special breed that remember to give it a wash. Give it a little bit one woman has fun. All those are external weird. You do actually want to get the dirt that may have accumulated on them off and a vaginal tract is not the same thing.

Maraya Brown
No, no. So only water only water. You can use soap around your anus but around the vulva just water rinse no douching no perfumes. Yeah. You know,

Joli Hamilton
even you are and when you don't. It's very clear. There's a very clear list. So when bacterial vaginosis, like when that BV is a particular scene scenario that can come up. I'm sure you're familiar with it. It's not like anything, you will know that. Yeah, it's a

Maraya Brown
very, it's a very distinct fishy odor and the discharge will increase a lot. And even with that, you know, I was trained, you give them antibiotics, but then once again, an antibiotic is going to go in and yes, it's going to tackle the bad bacteria but also tackle the good and so sometimes a woman can wait it out, wait till the next menstrual cycle and the body resets. No other times. I've used a compounding pharmacy and just done of boric acid vaginal suppositories instead. And it tackles it just as well. But it's also for me, a cue that something is off in that vaginal microbiome and the pH is too high. Wow. And so we can address it nutritionally.

Joli Hamilton
There's so much to know about how our bodies work. And I mean, I did I was a doula, I was studying to be a midwife. When I chose a different I took a right turn. But there's like, I feel like every day I am reminded of how complicated our bodies are,

Maraya Brown
and how our divine their divine in their ever changing, their ever changing. And that's the thing that I think is very unique in in female physiology, compared to male physiology is we really are exceptionally dynamic. Like it's not just changing every day, but we are changing from morning to evening, from morning to evening. And then each each week of a 28 day cycle is distinctly different. And I have the I did one, a podcast episode just on this, to acknowledge that we're different in our body aches and our GI tract and our bloating and our mood, but also our desire for creativity, our libido, our socialization. And when we look at it as seasons, there is a time when, you know, it's that time to be publishing your book or doing your TED Talk and out there, throwing the party throwing the graduation party. And there's another time in the in the month where it really serves us better to just bring it in and be connecting with our close, close loved ones. Yeah. And the more that we're able to honor that and be in conversations with those that we share a household with, with where we are in our 20 day cycle. I think it helps everybody get along better and really honor. Listen, the moon pulls tides.

Joli Hamilton
Yeah, yeah, I can pull us. Yeah, who are we?

Ken Hamilton
No, I have I have a question about that. So you're describing the dynamics of the cycle. And there that's, it's awesome. I mean, yes. female bodies are complex in a way that that male ones like mine aren't. And it's I celebrate that that is awesome. The How do the various forms of birth control affect that? Yeah, I'm excited because

Joli Hamilton
I actually don't get my my cycle. I do not bleed. I and I haven't for most of my adult life. I have not bled because I I was breastfeeding for 11 years. And I didn't leave it all while I breastfed. And that was just me. And then I I had a copper IUD and I barely blood on that, and with a Mirena, I don't at all. I don't know. So there are just these and there are other hormonal birth controls that also impact us. So yeah,

Maraya Brown
absolutely. Absolutely. So that's one of the reasons why I highlight that there's a lot more to track up, not just our bleeding. Yeah, I think often we think that that's the only thing that we're looking at, and it is, you know, ACOG the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology calls it the fifth vital sign that really when the most visits, they don't actually pay close attention to that bleeding. If if a woman is still in her fertility years and bleeding, it's important to look at is it heavy? Is it crampy? Is it red? Is it dark, all that. But there's so much more for us to look at in a 28 day cycle. And so when a woman is on hormonal contraception, it does change it pretty significantly, because now we're adding in exogenous pharmaceutical hormones. One really fascinating thing. Dr. Sarah Hill wrote a book called your brain on the pill. She's at a Texas and I interviewed her in my podcast and and one of the things that they're finding in this conversation around adrenals is for some reason, the pharmaceutical progesterone, so progestin sends the adrenals into hyperdrive, and the body loses the negative feedback loop with cortisol, which means a woman's body is pumping out cortisol and doesn't get the message to stop that that's a problem. So on one hand, I am a huge advocate of women taking full personal responsibility for their fertility. So hormonal contraception is phenomenal if they know that they don't want to become pregnant or it's not safe for them to become pregnant. I mean, there's so many factors there. And post birth control syndrome is a real thing. And now, rather than the woman's body, allowing the moon to pull tight, so to speak, they're not ovulating. And so now they're having if they're having a bleed from depending on which contraception they're on On it's not really a true bleed. The other challenge there is ovulation is what's considered the main event. Yep. And so ovulation. ovulation. Correct. ovulation is what stimulates a woman's body to produce progesterone. So far just goes away theory, now we lose our progesterone production and progesterone is that that's it's like I think of it as like, um, the calmer the emulsifier. The the thing that kind of takes the edge off it balances are estrogen. And so estrogen dominance can lead to the menstrual migraines and fibroids and breast tenderness and cancers and the real strong irritability and crappiness. And we, we want to balance it with progesterone. And so for not ovulating, we lose that main event. And so I have concern there. And so then tracking becomes a little bit more difficult, because you're not necessarily tracking your bleed time. Or if it's in a marina, you're not going to believe it. All right, but you still I really encourage women to continue to, and even if you're beyond menopause, and you're not bleeding anymore, yeah, that woman still has a 28 day cycle.

Joli Hamilton
So I've heard you speak to this before. And if it occurred to me that I do track things, but I forget to think of it as tracking who I like, like, I for instance, I track migraines. I've had migraines since I was eight. So you know, it's a thing in my life. But, you know, there are so many things to track that I think our relationships highlight, right? Like how I speak to my my most intimate partners, how I'm showing up in that relationship, like there's a big mirror there for me. So I, for instance, don't bleed, but I do sometimes yell. It's pretty cyclical. Even though I am I do have Moreno which means I'm not leading. There you go. It's It's fascinating to watch how my how, for me my behavior is a way for me to track my not just my inner experience, but my physiological inner experience, not just my cycle. So

Maraya Brown
absolutely. And when you're on the same page, and he also has an idea of when that's coming, you know, for me, during that I call it fall. So winter is what I consider the bleeding time if the woman's bleeding. And in that fall time, that's PMS. Yeah. So that's when we're more likely to, you know, just bite the Viper comes out. And then we go, Gosh, why did I overreact over that. And so we get to preemptively go, Okay, I know I'm in that week, if I feel like I want to bite his head off, I'm going to remove myself and go upstairs and just give myself a pause. Because I know that if I give it two or three days, it probably is going to be just fine. So let me go breathe. Or if you're thinking, I'm going to quit that job, I'm going to leave that relationship, I'm going to cut off that friend, whatever it is the rash. Yeah, responsiveness that we have. Now, I think it's important that a few days later, we really look at that and go, Okay, that was a true part of something that's within you that I'm desiring, but maybe not make the big decision or do the big yelling, and, and then for our partners, and to understand that they get to kind of preemptively prepare that I'm going to be more nitpicky and how he's folding the towels. Just silly,

Joli Hamilton
right silliness that, you know, you're reminding me of the fact that there is an opportunity on both sides of that, on the receiving side to Ken has a, a magic spell that he invites that that Viper, he'll invite it for and just embrace the fact that it's happening, and breathe through it. And that changed how, how we relate because he's just like, Okay, let me without taking this on as a measure of me. What if I just invite it? And I'm like, Okay, this is where we are right now without over identifying with. That's what

Ken Hamilton
I was going to say the if if I identify with the rage, or whatever judgment is coming at me, then I have all of these, you know, maybe it touches my self worth or whatever, your little boy, little boy parts. But if I take it as well, let me see what's in what's happening right now. For me what resonates with my own judgment and opinions of what's going on right now also, and those are the relational pieces. And then the other stuff, I'm like, Okay, I'm just gonna let him let that be what it is, and we can deal with that separately. From what I actually want. Oh, right. I don't have to respond to everything you're saying. I can pick. Yeah, and I want We engage in this conversation and you want to have this other part of the conversation. I'm not going to have that right now we'll have this other one.

Joli Hamilton
And, yeah, I'm thinking just about how when we allow hormones to enter the conversation, we'd be cautious not to use them as a, not to weaponize the idea that yes, right not to diminish the other in either direction of you know, when it comes to this, but also to so if we invite this conversation into our relationship, there is the potential to build a bridge between us a bridge of understanding, and you mentioned that pause, and I was thinking about, you know, the, the very intelligent reminder that if you're going to take a pause, just tell the person when you'll be back. And if that's going to be a week, that's fine, just remind each other, that that's what's happening. And so destigmatizing, and so really humanizing to do that.

Maraya Brown
The other base that I think is relevant in this conversation, because you and I both work with very ambitious individuals that, okay, let's say now we're talking about in the workplace, right, where maybe a man and woman are working together, or two women are working together, and they're in the boardroom. And maybe they're not actually having this conversation about where they are in their cycle. Right. And yet, inevitably, the same interactions are happening. And so really, I think, for me, it's around helping women come into a very empowered self discovery. So that they're, they're going into their working environment home, in an ideal world, being able to kind of own your schedule based on where you are in a 28 day cycle. And if not go in with absolute self awareness of where and really truly, you know, in that Avi LaTorre time, that's when the the, you know, it's seductress. It's the blossoming. And then the summertime, that's when you're out of the block party and your babies would have been the big party. And, and so the more that we can honor that, that's how we're presenting ourselves and our bodies feel different. And that's when we want to wear the cute bra on the phones. And we put on lip lip gloss, and we feel super sexy. And so that changes the interactions in the work in the workforce as well. But it does it in a very different way.

Joli Hamilton
Sure, sure. I mean, it's a great time to be doing sales. I love selling when I'm in that mode. I love it.

Maraya Brown
Yes, if we, right, right. If we signed up to debate the big sales presentation, but we're in our wintertime, our bleeding time. Yeah. And then we're going oh, crap. Why did I sign up for this?

Joli Hamilton
Right? Right. Oh, I love the self awareness that this invites, like another whole way to be self aware. And it's striking me that this is just such an enormous undertaking. It could feel so overwhelming. I'm guessing that there are folks out there listening right now thinking cool. Maraya, well, what should I do? Right now? Like I said, it's a lot. And what would you say is a good place to start? Like one or two things that

Maraya Brown
some Yes, yes. So I mentioned adaptogens. Really, truly, I think all women should be drinking adaptogen elixirs every single day, eating an anti inflammatory diet hydrating, well, eating all the good quality, fats, all of that stuff. I'm a big fan of seeing the right provider. So often, I'll hear women say, you know, here's the things that are going on in my body. And I go to my provider and I, and I explained my symptoms. And they ordered basic Labs, which they don't know are basic. In my mind, I'm hearing basic. And I'm told that everything's normal. And here's my prescription. And so number one, if that's been you the solution you've been offered, and that's not what you're looking for, keep looking. There are other providers out there, and there's so much that can be done without a prescription for a drug. Yeah, I think of that as bandaid fix, like, let's put a BandAid on a Festering Wound and just pretend it's not there. How about we get to the underlying cause and look underneath the hood. And then that last piece around in the boardroom and the grandiosity of will self discovery and personal development. I don't even have time for that. But there's subtle things that we can do. For instance, if you're in your PMS week, adding some extra magnesium in the evening to preemptively just create that little bit of calm, having your extra CBD available, making sure that you're really hydrating, well prioritizing sleep in different ways. And also just wearing more comfortable clothes. And if you're going to wear a different business suit, can you just make it like softer textures that aren't so tight, so that we create a little bit more softness and we allow our expression of feminine power, even in the context of being really ambitious women in the workforce if that's who's listening, if that's where you are because that's, that's A lot of the women that I work with, I

Joli Hamilton
think when I gave myself permission to love my body, love its its softness. I mean, I was in the fitness industry for a long time. And it was hard to love softness, then I wanted my body to be literally hard. When I let myself enjoy that, and I and I started, I actually started with my clothes, I started letting myself wear, what my kids like to call soft pants, or like, like really softening my wardrobe and allowing myself to exist in this body in a softer way. It changed how I related to myself to my partners.

Maraya Brown
Yep. Yep. And if you're in heterosexual relationships, we stop emasculating our men. And we create the expansiveness for them to show up as men in that dynamic,

Joli Hamilton
right? There's a fascinating conversation to have about what it means to pass that back and forth. Because yeah, I have definitely lived my some years very hyper, what I would think of as simple masculine. I don't really think of it as it's not bad, but it's way too simple. I wasn't doing it. Well.

Ken Hamilton
simples. A good way to simplify.

I can see do you have three or four more hours? You just said something that you've been talking about the cycles and the way women change? And what about men? So the male perspective, or at least the one I was trained with, was my socialized, masculine. Growing up is we don't change. We're stable. We're not it's painful home. I mean, our our experience, my personal anecdotal experience of my life, is that I absolutely vary in how I approach a particular situation. There are times when I want to yell about nothing. You know, and you use the word overreact. And there have been times where we have Joey and I have had a fight or some, you know, a exciting exchange. And when she was done, she's like, I don't know why I overreacted. And I would never use that word, particularly in the moment. Because you're not overreacting. You're reacting from where you are right then. And I have times where I will look back on myself and say, That's odd. I don't know why that was disproportionate response. And I was wondering if you have any thoughts about the somebody in a mess? Yeah, about the masculine experience, the dynamic dynamism you've been talking about?

Maraya Brown
Yeah. You know, it's fascinating. All of my work is with women. And I think when when I think about like, kind of stereotypically, man versus woman, the visual for me is that the, the masculine? The masculine is the banks of the river. And the feminine is the water. And we all have both, you know, I think maybe women were 70%, feminine, 30% masculine in an ideal world. And then maybe 70%, masculine and 30% feminine. In an ideal world, there's obviously so many variations to that. But the banks are a little bit more solid. They're they're kind of holding the space so that the water doesn't flood out, and it creates the container for the water to flow through and make it to the river and the banks are still changing.

Joli Hamilton
That's exactly so we live on a river. The two of us grew up on a river. We were on it right now. I'm literally 3540 feet from it. And that is exactly what just jumped out at me. Yep. And the banks change, but they change slowly. And in part because of the way the water moves through them. They're responsive to that. So take the words masculine and feminine out of this because my, my psyche, my psychologist, my inner psychologist, my intersex educator, like don't forget, that's also all crap. Because because it's so much more concept complicated, but there's something so powerful about the image and the metaphor about how that stability, the expectation, that you will be unchanging then also molds you and molds me and my own expectations of you and allowing ourselves to be freed of of needing to be 7030 or needing to be 50 or whatever. Yep, allowing ourselves to do that. I can only imagine that be supporting the physiologic the physiology that I have, what I have, by listening really closely to my body and by tracking and paying attention. Yep, that's a way to to steer into more comfort or growth for me, without really needing to worry about whether I am hyper or anything or hypo anything, just like really diving into the felt sense of it. And I feel like you've offered an invitation to Yeah, to just pay more attention. And then and then But then that there are really practical things and that we don't have to accept, like the the two steps that might be offered by our current practitioners, we can reach further than that. One of the places people can reach us directly to you, which makes me really happy. Because this is not my wheelhouse. How can people find you? And

Maraya Brown
yes, so we'll put the links in the show notes, I'm sure. So Facebook and Instagram, I have a presence there. And I do free workshops online. So the vibrant life workshop is a really nice way to lean in. And it's my way just to really give a lot of solutions and a clear roadmap for free. And so it's online, you register, it's just MarayaBrown.com/thevibrantlife, put Joli's name down, as who referred you, and that way, I know, I can give you a little bit extra love and care. And I have to find my own words other than masculine and feminine. And that's the area for me to learn from you. And so you can come and lean in and it's virtual, and you have your own concierge support. And you'll have a workbook to go along and just create a starting point for your roadmap to you know, my main areas, energy hormones, and libido. And so that's probably register for that you're welcome to grab my free adaptogen elixir recipes. That's my MarayaBrown.com

Joli Hamilton
Yes, I have I made the one with the nettles. Amazing. And I have participated in your free workshop. And so I am an expert in in the general field that you and I share. And I just want everybody to go sign up lean into this, even some of my colleagues who I know are listening right now, lean in Maraya's language might be a little bit different from some of what we were taught, that's great, that is good news. We need to be learning from each other. So that we can deepen our field as a whole. And I learned a ton just in your free workshop, let alone the amazing programs that you offer. I really would love to see your work in the hands of my audience, because I know it's life changing.

Maraya Brown
So absolutely. I'm looking forward to meeting your senior community antastic can can hopefully that answered your question regarding, you know, the how the change that takes place, I think it is it feels to me, like it's kind of more responsive to the water that flows around you in some ways and, and more subtle, it's changing, but it's not as drastic, and, you know, raging.

Ken Hamilton
Yeah. And I I love that, that metaphor. And I brought it up partially to remind the, the people like me, in the audience who might have been trained to think of themselves as unchanging and inert, and we're not,

Joli Hamilton
and therefore more perfect, there's like a more there's white, there's a in solidity and static pneus we can have the illusion that that is somehow better. When in fact, they're just different ways.

Ken Hamilton
Those those those ways of being that I that I've engaged and just get in the way of relating and so this is great. Yeah, I

Maraya Brown
for the for the way for those that are listening, Julie just gave a really sweet caress cheek like there. It created a sweetness between the two of them that for the listeners, they didn't see that but I want to call it out. I see I see the smile. I see the wink wink. They're gonna go have sex when we're done with it.

Joli Hamilton
It's true. It's gonna happen. It's gonna happen. That's typically happens. But yeah. Thank you so much for joining us. Maraya. I'm sure this is not going to be the last conversation we have about this. I really couldn't appreciate to any more.

Ken Hamilton
Thank you for sharing your expertise. Yeah, of course.

Maraya Brown
My pleasure.